TWU,TEAMSTERS AND AA

. Is that what your Hoffa crystal ball tells you? You do not even work for AA. I can tell you that from the feedback I am getting from around the system many do not want the teamsters. Many are talking about the Write In choice of AMFA. So if there will be a vote you will see more AMFA votes than you think. With the help of the twu moving forward with the anti teamsters campaign it will only help AMFA on the ballot. Keep posting. We are all listening to you. Lol...
Let me fill you in Pal. I have let you call me names and what ever. I understand you are upset that your amfa did not come out on top!
A lot of us out here in the Real World, Who work with others from other airlines and don't have the ROSE COLORED AMFA glasses, Only have the Heart Burn from AMFA FAILURES Like the NWA guys. Go talk to them boys and ask about AMFA. And What That Means Is You Have To Pull Your Head Out Of swamt A$$ Long Enough To Get Some Fresh Air. All I did one day was mention amfa in front of a X-NWA guy and he almost BIT MY HEAD OFF.
He and others told me the same story about the closing of the Hanger in ATL and the Strike and what lead up to it and ALL the support AMFA gave them and then blamed the members for it's (AMFA) FAILURES.
I Don't Want You To Take My Word For It Or swamt's PRO AMFA WORD GO TALK TO A FEW NWA AIRLINE AMT"S.
AMFA LIED TO YOU!!!!! FAILED YOU!!!!!!! They said they were ready to file!!! Then what blame someone else for there (AMFA) FAILURE........... WTF MAN TAKE THE GLASSES OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

PS HAVE A NICE IBT DAY!!!!
 
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I am attempting to get to the bottom of a debate. I believe the IBT attorney's are clear in what they are doing. The Hero thinks they are wrong because of his example above. He would like me to acknowledge that the change in the quote creates something different. I can see the difference as clearly as any of you but I am not an attorney, so I have to ask the one who wrote it since our hero will not.

TSH would rather charge after someone else rather than simply ask for clarification and the reasons are now clear. It turns out that amfa has already challenged this statement and have already received an explanation from the IBT attorneys that they could not dispute. Our Hero knows this but has brought it up again in an attempt to redirect recent embarrassments directed towards the association.



Why does TSH appear so dead set against me contacting the IBT attorney's?

I sent a politely worded e-mail to the IBT attorney's and explained exactly who I was and the reasons for my inquiry. I asked if the difference in the quotes creates any type of an unknown challenge. He was good enough to send me a return e-mail explaining his position and also explained that this had already been thoroughly reviewed by amfa.

Mr McInerney explained that the words left out "in situations such as this one" have no bearing to the meaning of the decision in his expert opinion. He believes those words only described the subject situation and were not meant to describe that each subsequent case must follow exactly the same scenario. As a lawyer, he has several years of experience researching decisions and has found no two case circumstances are ever exactly alike. He has no doubt that he can successfully argue that the decision should allow the American Airlines mechanic contract to be reopened. He did not misquote the decision but instead quoted exactly the basis for his argument. The heart of the decision falls on this quote and was reviewed by other IBT attorneys as well. “a newly-certified union has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees have previously been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.”

amfa was notified and had the quote explained to them. Since then the Seaham team as well as amfa have been suspiciously quiet. Our hero of course knows this but finds his association on thin ice.

Now I know the reason he did not want me to contact Mr McInerney. He did not want me to find out what I learned. He knows his argument means nothing but a waste of time. He knows that amfa was wrong in their interpretation but can not turn back now for fear of being exposed. He knows that once again, amfa failed.

Thanks for pushing this hero. More than ever I see the weakness of amfa.

No it is not about contacting a attorney. It is about opening the contract after you change representation. That has already been proven to be a false claim by the Teamsters. Yet they persist. Can not do it no way, no how in this particular situation.

More and more I see greater fear of AMFA, better yet Little ole AMFA.
 
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Let me fill you in Pal. I have let you call me names and what ever. I understand you are upset that your amfa did not come out on top!
A lot of us out here in the Real World, Who work with others from other airlines and don't have the ROSE COLORED AMFA glasses, Only have the Heart Burn from AMFA FAILURES Like the NWA guys. Go talk to them boys and ask about AMFA. And What That Means Is You Have To Pull Your Head Out Of swamt A$$ Long Enough To Get Some Fresh Air. All I did one day was mention amfa in front of a X-NWA guy and he almost BIT MY HEAD OFF.
He and others told me the same story about the closing of the Hanger in ATL and the Strike and what lead up to it and ALL the support AMFA gave them and then blamed the members for it's (AMFA) FAILURES.
I Don't Want You To Take My Word For It Or swamt's PRO AMFA WORD GO TALK TO A FEW NWA AIRLINE AMT"S.
AMFA LIED TO YOU!!!!! FAILED YOU!!!!!!! They said they were ready to file!!! Then what blame someone else for there (AMFA) FAILURE........... WTF MAN TAKE THE GLASSES OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

PS HAVE A NICE IBT DAY!!!!
What does this have to do with your initial post that most AA guys will vote Teamsters?
I see AMFA still threatens you. I am dealing with AA guys at work not other airline guys. All unions have failures including your beloved IBT. So what, that is the business we are in. You let all that upset you? By your response I see you still are threatened by AMFA. You do not even work for AA, so why should you be concerned about what happens at AA with my fellow AMT's. Why do you even bother to get your blood pressure up over events at AA? If AMFA is such a failure then how come the guys over at SWA and Alaska are not sounding off or doing a card drive? Again I am concerned about what is happening at AA. We will proceed forward with what is best for us at AA not UAL or SWA or Alaska or USAir or UPS or CAL or Delta or any other carrier flying in the US or around the world.

Chill out and reset. Have a nice _ _ _ _ day.
 
No it is not about contacting a attorney. It is about opening the contract after you change representation. That has already been proven to be a false claim by the Teamsters. Yet they persist. Can not do it no way, no how in this particular situation.

More and more I see greater fear of AMFA, better yet Little ole AMFA.

Perfect answer.

Go with amfa and you will consistently be told "nothing can be done".

A vote for the Teamsters on the other hand will offer you persistence in representation.

Do you want a union willing to fight for the members or an association willing to roll over and play dead?
 
Perfect answer.

Go with amfa and you will consistently be told "nothing can be done".

A vote for the Teamsters on the other hand will offer you persistence in representation.

Do you want a union willing to fight for the members or an association willing to roll over and play dead?

You are correct on one thing. A Vote for representation. Other than that they appoint suck A$$ individuals to represent the M&R people. No voting on locals for M&R or a Business Agent. How is that for Democracy? Kind of sicks if you ask me. But lets not get into that subject again.
 
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Well don't get your hopes up because these 3 or 4 AMFA supporters will not vote Teamsters but the MAJORITY of AA AMT's will.
travis,

You really are a tool. Thanks for the laugh.

BTW... I had an opportunity to stop by and chat with the United guys here in SAN and EVERYONE in their breakroom laughed when talk turned to what's happening here at AA and I told them the teamsters were trying to get an election. To a man they said the teamsters will spend millions to organize but once elected they are no where to be found. They said, and I quote, "the teamsters suck!".

Don't worry though... if the teamsters are able to actually get an election at AA the majority of AMTs will write in AMFA.
 
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travis,

You really are a tool. Thanks for the laugh.

BTW... I had an opportunity to stop by and chat with the United guys here in SAN and EVERYONE in their breakroom laughed when talk turned to what's happening here at AA and I told them the teamsters were trying to get an election. To a man they said the teamsters will spend millions to organize but once elected they are no where to be found. They said, and I quote, "the teamsters suck!".

Don't worry though... if the teamsters are able to actually get an election at AA the majority of AMTs will write in AMFA.

Ken, every time you disagree with a post you start off your retort with an insult. Why is that? What are you so afraid of?

I don't believe your made up UAL break room story. Nice try
 
I am attempting to get to the bottom of a debate. I believe the IBT attorney's are clear in what they are doing. The Hero thinks they are wrong because of his example above. He would like me to acknowledge that the change in the quote creates something different. I can see the difference as clearly as any of you but I am not an attorney, so I have to ask the one who wrote it since our hero will not.

TSH would rather charge after someone else rather than simply ask for clarification and the reasons are now clear. It turns out that amfa has already challenged this statement and have already received an explanation from the IBT attorneys that they could not dispute. Our Hero knows this but has brought it up again in an attempt to redirect recent embarrassments directed towards the association.



Why does TSH appear so dead set against me contacting the IBT attorney's?

I sent a politely worded e-mail to the IBT attorney's and explained exactly who I was and the reasons for my inquiry. I asked if the difference in the quotes creates any type of an unknown challenge. He was good enough to send me a return e-mail explaining his position and also explained that this had already been thoroughly reviewed by amfa.

Mr McInerney explained that the words left out "in situations such as this one" have no bearing to the meaning of the decision in his expert opinion. He believes those words only described the subject situation and were not meant to describe that each subsequent case must follow exactly the same scenario. As a lawyer, he has several years of experience researching decisions and has found no two case circumstances are ever exactly alike. He has no doubt that he can successfully argue that the decision should allow the American Airlines mechanic contract to be reopened. He did not misquote the decision but instead quoted exactly the basis for his argument. The heart of the decision falls on this quote and was reviewed by other IBT attorneys as well. “a newly-certified union has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees have previously been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.”

amfa was notified and had the quote explained to them. Since then the Seaham team as well as amfa have been suspiciously quiet. Our hero of course knows this but finds his association on thin ice.

Now I know the reason he did not want me to contact Mr McInerney. He did not want me to find out what I learned. He knows his argument means nothing but a waste of time. He knows that amfa was wrong in their interpretation but can not turn back now for fear of being exposed. He knows that once again, amfa failed.

Thanks for pushing this hero. More than ever I see the weakness of amfa.

There is no dispute as to a whether “a newly-certified union has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees have previously been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” of course they do. But saying a newly-certified has full bargaining right it not saying they can open up section 6 negotiations when the company is not in agreement and before a contract is amendable. Those are 2 completely different things.

There is also no disputing the NMB is clear on this

Certification
A process under the RLA by which the NMB grants a union (or individual) sole bargaining rights over a specific group of employees.

http://www.leagle.com/decision-result/?xmldoc/1994145624F3d1432_11236.xml/docbase/CSLWAR2-1986-2006

A relevant starting point for this analysis is the well-established principle that a mere change of representatives does not alter otherwise applicable contractual agreements. This has been the policy of the Board since its inception in 1934:When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreement made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.
FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). The Board has reasoned that "[t]he purpose of such a policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier, and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement." FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).
Although we are not bound by the Board's policy statements on contractual issues, they carry significant weight when, as here, the operative principle has been endorsed by federal courts. See International Ass'n of Machinists v. Northwest Airlines, Inc.,843 F.2d 1119, 1123 n. 5 (8th Cir.), vacated as moot,854 F.2d 1088 (8th Cir. 1988); International Bhd. of Teamsters v. Texas Int'l Airlines, Inc.,717 F.2d 157, 163 (5th Cir.1983) ["Texas International"]. Thus, AFA's insistence that the Eastern-TWU agreement necessarily ceased to be the status quo when AFA succeeded TWU as the certified representative of Shuttle flight attendants is undercut by precedent holding that contractual agreements generally survive a change in representative. Moreover, as an intuitive matter, there is good reason to apply the foregoing policy in this instance. If, in the typical case where employees choose a new representative, the law nonetheless indulges the presumption that the employees were satisfied with their existing bargaining agreement and wish it to remain in force, it makes no sense to stray from that presumption in cases, such as this one, where the employees have not voted out their representative, but have had a new one imposed on them
 
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There is no dispute as to a whether “a newly-certified union has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees have previously been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.” of course they do. But saying a newly-certified has full bargaining right it not saying they can open up section 6 negotiations when the company is not in agreement and before a contract is amendable. Those are 2 completely different things.

There is also no disputing the NMB is clear on this

Certification
A process under the RLA by which the NMB grants a union (or individual) sole bargaining rights over a specific group of employees.

http://www.leagle.co...LWAR2-1986-2006

A relevant starting point for this analysis is the well-established principle that a mere change of representatives does not alter otherwise applicable contractual agreements. This has been the policy of the Board since its inception in 1934:When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one set of representatives and the employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does not alter or cancel any existing agreement made in behalf of the employees by their previous representatives.
FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 23-24 (1935). The Board has reasoned that "[t]he purpose of such a policy is to emphasize a principle of the Railway Labor Act that agreements are between the employees and the carrier, and that the change of an employee representative does not automatically change the contents of an agreement." FORTY-SECOND ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD 39 (1976).
Although we are not bound by the Board's policy statements on contractual issues, they carry significant weight when, as here, the operative principle has been endorsed by federal courts. See International Ass'n of Machinists v. Northwest Airlines, Inc.,843 F.2d 1119, 1123 n. 5 (8th Cir.), vacated as moot,854 F.2d 1088 (8th Cir. 1988); International Bhd. of Teamsters v. Texas Int'l Airlines, Inc.,717 F.2d 157, 163 (5th Cir.1983) ["Texas International"]. Thus, AFA's insistence that the Eastern-TWU agreement necessarily ceased to be the status quo when AFA succeeded TWU as the certified representative of Shuttle flight attendants is undercut by precedent holding that contractual agreements generally survive a change in representative. Moreover, as an intuitive matter, there is good reason to apply the foregoing policy in this instance. If, in the typical case where employees choose a new representative, the law nonetheless indulges the presumption that the employees were satisfied with their existing bargaining agreement and wish it to remain in force, it makes no sense to stray from that presumption in cases, such as this one, where the employees have not voted out their representative, but have had a new one imposed on them

Lets start from this last line. It appears to me that the AA and US mechanics are attempting to do exactly this. Vote out their representatives. I do not see a presumption that either group is satisfied with their agreement either, but that is a different subject all together.

At the end of the day you are attempting to do the same as TSH albeit much more eloquently. However, I have the same reply to you that I had to our self proclaimed hero. I have seen your arguments as well as others that say this can not be done. The IBT lawyers have also thoroughly researched this case and many other claims by carriers arguing against the ability to reopen the agreement. You and the hero write these arguments suggesting that the Teamster lawyers are either unaware or unprepared. After e-mailing one attorney I am now more than satisfied that the Teamsters have done the necessary research and continue to hold on to their determination that the contract can and will be re-opened. According to Mr McInerney they are both prepared and ready to move forward. Now whether or not they win or loose will be a judges decision, but it sounds to me that they have reasonable and justifiable answers to every argument. My bet, just like filing first, is that they will succeed where the other unions failed or would not even try.

Excuse me if I did not answer specific points to your post, but according to the IBT attorney's opinions, they are ready to argue these points in court rather than on these boards. I think the IBT will win and the AA contract will be renegotiated.
 
In the most simplest of terms, my answer to your latest fantasy is PROVE IT!

By Point.

You claim:


"...amfa has already challenged this statement and have already received an explanation from the IBT attorneys that they could not dispute..."
Contrary to your assertions I know of no such challenge from AMFA or of an explanation from the ibt. You say it exists, provide a link, PROVE IT!

You state:


"...Why does TSH appear so dead set against me contacting the IBT attorney's?..."
Where did I ever try to dissuade you from contacting anyone over this issue? PROVE IT!

You claim:

"... He did not misquote the decision but instead quoted exactly the basis for his argument. The heart of the decision falls on this quote and was reviewed by other IBT attorneys as well. “a newly-certified union has full bargaining rights with respect to covered employees without regard to whether the employees have previously been covered by a collective bargaining agreement.”...."


Once again you are a LIAR. In his video he clearly cites AFA vs US Air and then quite clearly uses the word "QUOTE". What he then reads is NOT what the decision states, it is most certainly a MISQUOTE. If he has some other version of the decision in which it reads as he says, then provide a link, PROVE IT!

You AGAIN claim:

"...amfa was notified and had the quote explained to them. Since then the Seaham team as well as amfa have been suspiciously quiet. Our hero of course knows this but finds his association on thin ice...."

And again I respond, contrary to your assertions I know of no such challenge from AMFA or of an explanation from the ibt. You say it exists, provide a link, PROVE IT!

You claim:



"...Now I know the reason he did not want me to contact Mr McInerney...."


And again I respond, where did I ever try to dissuade you from contacting anyone over this issue? PROVE IT!




And to close .....

If .... Mr McInerney explained that the words left out "in situations such as this one" have no bearing to the meaning of the decision in his expert opinion..... then why go out of the way to omit the words in the first place?

And did you ask Mr McInerney why he lied in his video about opening the contract early at UAL?
 
Lets start from this last line. It appears to me that the AA and US mechanics are attempting to do exactly this. Vote out their representatives. I do not see a presumption that either group is satisfied with their agreement either, but that is a different subject all together.

At the end of the day you are attempting to do the same as TSH albeit much more eloquently. However, I have the same reply to you that I had to our self proclaimed hero. I have seen your arguments as well as others that say this can not be done. The IBT lawyers have also thoroughly researched this case and many other claims by carriers arguing against the ability to reopen the agreement. You and the hero write these arguments suggesting that the Teamster lawyers are either unaware or unprepared. After e-mailing one attorney I am now more than satisfied that the Teamsters have done the necessary research and continue to hold on to their determination that the contract can and will be re-opened. According to Mr McInerney they are both prepared and ready to move forward. Now whether or not they win or loose will be a judges decision, but it sounds to me that they have reasonable and justifiable answers to every argument. My bet, just like filing first, is that they will succeed where the other unions failed or would not even try.

Excuse me if I did not answer specific points to your post, but according to the IBT attorney's opinions, they are ready to argue these points in court rather than on these boards. I think the IBT will win and the AA contract will be renegotiated.

Obviously you are IBT believer and don't want to do or say anything to sway vote for the election and you are going to go with what the IBT and their lawyers tell you and won't listen or acknowledge anything else from any source. You and I will believe what we want but it most likely won't be decided in court. It wil be a moot point by then as the merger will take care of that.
 
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Excuse me if I did not answer specific points to your post, but according to the IBT attorney's opinions, they are ready to argue these points in court rather than on these boards. I think the IBT will win and the AA contract will be renegotiated.

The AA contract will be renegotiated following the merger, but not because there's any legal process that requires the employer to reopen a settled contract when the IBT replaces another representative. The AA contract (and the US IAM contract) will be renegotiated following the merger to arrive at a new combined CBA.

You (and that fat kid attorney) are misrepresenting the holding of the AFA decision. That decision is inapplicable to the present situation.
 
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