UAL A&p's and related have a T/A

[xUT]

The last few pages of this thread have hit the nail on the head....member apathy.

Unfortunately most members view the union as an insurance policy and their dues a monthly premium. Its one of the things I've found most ironic about this deteriorating situation that members want old school union results without providing the one thing which those results were based on .... strong member participation.

TSH

That is the crux of the problem and spot on!

When we had a 'LABOR' rally at SFO Int'l on 'LABOR' Day in support of 'LABOR' and NW strike, I had members tell me we should not have a rally on a holiday weekend, can't make it, dog is sick, having a BBQ, etc... :wacko:

We had about 300 people show up and most were from other industries. SFO point had about 4,400 people at that time.

Same thing with the pension rally, as we watched Petrovsky and the van pools waving and laughing at us as they drove off.

I will say we had about the same participation of volunteers in support of the NW strike as we did the EAL strike.
Both were abysmal.

If the membership doesn't care then I don't know how it can be fixed.
But I will say the IAM is better than the IBT.
JMHO,
B) xUT

 

[delldude]

That is the crux of the problem and spot on!

When we had a 'LABOR' rally at SFO Int'l on 'LABOR' Day in support of 'LABOR' and NW strike, I had members tell me we should not have a rally on a holiday weekend, can't make it, dog is sick, having a BBQ, etc... :wacko:

We had about 300 people show up and most were from other industries. SFO point had about 4,400 people at that time.

Same thing with the pension rally, as we watched Petrovsky and the van pools waving and laughing at us as they drove off.

I will say we had about the same participation of volunteers in support of the NW strike as we did the EAL strike.
Both were abysmal.

If the membership doesn't care then I don't know how it can be fixed.
But I will say the IAM is better than the IBT.
JMHO,
B) xUT

Another insightful view from someone who was on the wall......

 

[lineguy43]

That is the crux of the problem and spot on!

When we had a 'LABOR' rally at SFO Int'l on 'LABOR' Day in support of 'LABOR' and NW strike, I had members tell me we should not have a rally on a holiday weekend, can't make it, dog is sick, having a BBQ, etc... :wacko:

We had about 300 people show up and most were from other industries. SFO point had about 4,400 people at that time.

Same thing with the pension rally, as we watched Petrovsky and the van pools waving and laughing at us as they drove off.

I will say we had about the same participation of volunteers in support of the NW strike as we did the EAL strike.
Both were abysmal.

If the membership doesn't care then I don't know how it can be fixed.
But I will say the IAM is better than the IBT.
JMHO,
B) xUT

Shameful isn't xUT! ...Man I don't know that to tell you UAL dudes you have gone full circle and want the IAM back again. I don't know what to tell you. I would say try AMFA again.But I have issues with them not because we lost our strike or their poor planning and execution of it. But for trying to bring the scabs into the fold at NW after the strike was settled. So I really do not have any union that I would support. I see these FX guys and their IBT lanyards I always tell them to talk to a UAL guy to see if they really want that. Me? I am at the point of now I will ride the "coattails" of those union mechanics and reap the benefits like the FX and DAL AMT's have done all this time. All we have to do is start a card drive and ol Fred throws money at the AMT's I have to laugh but it is true. I paid the ultimate sacrifice and lost close to 20 years at NW and had to start over. I am done fighting let someone else do it now.

 

[delldude]

Shameful isn't xUT! ...Man I don't know that to tell you UAL dudes you have gone full circle and want the IAM back again. I don't know what to tell you. I would say try AMFA again.But I have issues with them not because we lost our strike or their poor planning and execution of it. But for trying to bring the scabs into the fold at NW after the strike was settled. So I really do not have any union that I would support. I see these FX guys and their IBT lanyards I always tell them to talk to a UAL guy to see if they really want that. Me? I am at the point of now I will ride the "coattails" of those union mechanics and reap the benefits like the FX and DAL AMT's have done all this time. All we have to do is start a card drive and ol Fred throws money at the AMT's I have to laugh but it is true. I paid the ultimate sacrifice and lost close to 20 years at NW and had to start over. I am done fighting let someone else do it now.

Sound like what the last three pages of this thread are about.

 

[Harvey]

Great post TSH.

balony strong leaders thats whats lacking. Old unionism had stong leaders and the sheep I mean members followed that is how it has always worked. but today we have crooks that lead.

 

[strfyr51]

We have started an AMFA card drive at UAL and this horrific TA has provided the momentum we have been waiting for. We just want out of this nightmare and now people are speaking out loud and signing AMFA cards. Check out The-UALMechanics.com for more info. GT

****************************************************************************************************GT.
I HOPE this time you'll tone DOWN the BS Rhetoric and GET to the point! All that Metaphoric crap AMFA used to spout needs to get flushed DOWN the TOILET! And No more Louie Keys and other chumps from OUTSIDE UAL trying to run OUR business. I WILLhave a vote if and when the card drive comes down even AFTER AMFA stabbed us in the back during our negotiations (Namely Louie Key) The same stuff we wanted THEN? Is STILL ON the TABLE!! Clacy Griswold at the IBT turned out to be one of the biggest LOSERS and windbags I've ever met and their ORD Business agent "Dumber than Dirt"?? WTF?? He's not EVEN a Mechanic ! And what's with being in a Local run by Trash Haulers?? How is 986 going to hep US as mechanics?? Waste Management Cleaned THEIR Clocks!! Plus? I found out the IBT National is SCARED spitless of UPS local 2727A because they can't tell them ANYTHING! They are what WE should have been, A TOTALLY AUTONOMOUS entity within the IBT. The IBT Didn't know JACK about our Business and Has NO IDEA what the deal Is. But YOU and the REST of the AMFA supporters NEED TO Keep ONE thing in mind, There isn't any more "Trust ME"!! Ain't gonna happen again! You either quit the "ELETIST" crap and join the AFL-CIO with the other unions on the property or Call it a night and say G'day FOREVER! After the A$$whipping AMFA took at NWA? And? After getting "shown the door" ALREADY at UNITED?? You don't have the credibility to sell that BS again. And I don't want to SEE nor Hear from any Buttwipe from outside of UAL. Telling me ANYTHING!!

 

[lineguy43]

HOPE this time you'll tone DOWN the BS Rhetoric and GET to the point! All that Metaphoric crap AMFA used to spout needs to get flushed DOWN the TOILET! And No more Louie Keys and other chumps from OUTSIDE UAL trying to run OUR business. I WILLhave a vote if and when the card drive comes down even AFTER AMFA stabbed us in the back during our negotiations (Namely Louie Key) The same stuff we wanted THEN? Is STILL ON the TABLE!! Clacy Griswold at the IBT turned out to be one of the biggest LOSERS and windbags I've ever met and their ORD Business agent "Dumber than Dirt"?? WTF?? He's not EVEN a Mechanic ! And what's with being in a Local run by Trash Haulers?? How is 986 going to hep US as mechanics?? Waste Management Cleaned THEIR Clocks!! Plus? I found out the IBT National is SCARED spitless of UPS local 2727A because they can't tell them ANYTHING! They are what WE should have been, A TOTALLY AUTONOMOUS entity within the IBT. The IBT Didn't know JACK about our Business and Has NO IDEA what the deal Is. But YOU and the REST of the AMFA supporters NEED TO Keep ONE thing in mind, There isn't any more "Trust ME"!! Ain't gonna happen again! You either quit the "ELETIST" crap and join the AFL-CIO with the other unions on the property or Call it a night and say G'day FOREVER! After the A$$whipping AMFA took at NWA? And? After getting "shown the door" ALREADY at UNITED?? You don't have the credibility to sell that BS again. And I don't want to SEE nor Hear from any Buttwipe from outside of UAL. Telling me ANYTHING!!

Gee strfry seems like you have as much distrust as I have..We had the same thing during our AMFA negotiations outsiders telling us how to vote and to hold out for top dollar and where were they when we got our asses handed to us? Crickets. Even had laid off UAL and NW scabbing us and AMFA said nothing after the strike was over. One thing you have with your attitude is you still have your job and seniority I had to start over at 42. Like I said in a previous post my fighting in this industry is done...I will never scab but I will reap any benefits from union fighting I paid my dues.

 

[xUT]

We have started an AMFA card drive at UAL and this horrific TA has provided the momentum we have been waiting for. We just want out of this nightmare and now people are speaking out loud and signing AMFA cards. Check out The-UALMechanics.com for more info. GT

****************************************************************************************************GT.
I HOPE this time you'll tone DOWN the BS Rhetoric and GET to the point! All that Metaphoric crap AMFA used to spout needs to get flushed DOWN the TOILET! And No more Louie Keys and other chumps from OUTSIDE UAL trying to run OUR business. I WILLhave a vote if and when the card drive comes down even AFTER AMFA stabbed us in the back during our negotiations (Namely Louie Key) The same stuff we wanted THEN? Is STILL ON the TABLE!! Clacy Griswold at the IBT turned out to be one of the biggest LOSERS and windbags I've ever met and their ORD Business agent "Dumber than Dirt"?? WTF?? He's not EVEN a Mechanic ! And what's with being in a Local run by Trash Haulers?? How is 986 going to hep US as mechanics?? Waste Management Cleaned THEIR Clocks!! Plus? I found out the IBT National is SCARED spitless of UPS local 2727A because they can't tell them ANYTHING! They are what WE should have been, A TOTALLY AUTONOMOUS entity within the IBT. The IBT Didn't know JACK about our Business and Has NO IDEA what the deal Is. But YOU and the REST of the AMFA supporters NEED TO Keep ONE thing in mind, There isn't any more "Trust ME"!! Ain't gonna happen again! You either quit the "ELETIST" crap and join the AFL-CIO with the other unions on the property or Call it a night and say G'day FOREVER! After the A$$whipping AMFA took at NWA? And? After getting "shown the door" ALREADY at UNITED?? You don't have the credibility to sell that BS again. And I don't want to SEE nor Hear from any Buttwipe from outside of UAL. Telling me ANYTHING!!

IMHO, the NMB put you in this class and craft. SAMC should be management or engineering.
Good Luck!
B) xUT

 

[Bob Owens]

The last few pages of this thread have hit the nail on the head....member apathy.

Unfortunately most members view the union as an insurance policy and their dues a monthly premium. Its one of the things I've found most ironic about this deteriorating situation that members want old school union results without providing the one thing which those results were based on .... strong member participation.

TSH

Member Apathy is a symptom not the cause. Apathy is a symptom of failed or failing leadership.

I've never seen a union in this industry try to lead their workers into battle against the company where the members failed to show up however time and time again I've seen Union leaders come back with concessionary deals and say that the members should accept the deal and "We will get em next time" and they all know that there will be no getting them next time, next time will be the same as this time.

Members dont fail leaders, leaders fail their members.

 

[xUT]

Member Apathy is a symptom not the cause. Apathy is a symptom of failed or failing leadership.

I've never seen a union in this industry try to lead their workers into battle against the company where the members failed to show up however time and time again I've seen Union leaders come back with concessionary deals and say that the members should accept the deal and "We will get em next time" and they all know that there will be no getting them next time, next time will be the same as this time.

Members dont fail leaders, leaders fail their members.

IMHO, you are incorrect.

If the union holds a public display of solidarity and not many people show up in support, it reflects directly on the strength of the union. Companies know this and report membership participation to HR ( or the media does it for them). Unions are dying because their membership doesn't care. They may not care because the unions are working against their own best interests. Unions that support immigration (illegal or otherwise) are in direct conflict in with many of their members. Members are not stupid and see the socialist train hitting their living room. Younger workers today enjoy the wages and benefits paid for by the sacrifices of unionists of days gone by but are more than willing to throw out the older folks so they can get a step up. Workers today are self centered and myopic. Under this 'globalization' scheme, USA can only compete with foreign workers when we accept their pay and benefits to be competitive. Granted that foreign governments do not have the safety and labor laws we have, but that is immaterial. Strip a plane and send the chemicals into the local river, that's ok because it doesn't violate 'our laws'. Have children making clothes in a sweat shop, that's ok because it doesn't violate 'our laws'.

In the great scheme of 'globalization' we can only hope to raise their lifestyle before their lifestyle becomes ours.
B) xUT

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Member Apathy is a symptom not the cause. Apathy is a symptom of failed or failing leadership.

I've never seen a union in this industry try to lead their workers into battle against the company where the members failed to show up however time and time again I've seen Union leaders come back with concessionary deals and say that the members should accept the deal and "We will get em next time" and they all know that there will be no getting them next time, next time will be the same as this time.

Members dont fail leaders, leaders fail their members.

While I don't deny there are indeed too many failed leaders, I disagree that it is leaders alone that can be blamed.

When UAL had AMFA, we had weekly briefing notes, a bi monthly newsletter, a list of the Locals meeting times for the entire year made available in December of the prior year. Yet at each and every lead up to meeting day you heard the same sorry excuses.....I gotta van pool, I got child care issues, I got this, I got that, etc etc.

We all here talk to some extent about leaders accountability to the membership, well when do you hold the membership accountable to the union?

I think you got it half right....Members dont fail leaders, Members fail their UNION.

 

[xUT]

While I don't deny there are indeed too many failed leaders, I disagree that it is leaders alone that can be blamed.

When UAL had AMFA, we had weekly briefing notes, a bi monthly newsletter, a list of the Locals meeting times for the entire year made available in December of the prior year. Yet at each and every lead up to meeting day you heard the same sorry excuses.....I gotta van pool, I got child care issues, I got this, I got that, etc etc.

We all here talk to some extent about leaders accountability to the membership, well when do you hold the membership accountable to the union?

I think you got it half right....Members dont fail leaders, Members fail their UNION.

Well Stated!!!
Take Care,
B) xUT

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Well Stated!!!
Take Care,
B) xUT

In todays day and age with most members working two jobs the wife working and taking care of the kids spare time is hard to come by. If just making a meeting is going to change things then why not do a podcast or have the meeting on a video conference. Members can e-mail in questions or suggestions to be answered at the meeting. There would be more participation from the members if the meeting were made more accessible. Why not video the meetine and put it on utube. I dont need to rub elbows with the members I see on a daily basis but if there is info that needs to get to the membership then maybe its time to deliver it using a different medium other than the monthly union hall. Enough of the excuses lets take a proactive approach to changing the archaic way of doing things. Just a thought...

You may also want to go back and read post 114
The lack of participation or turnout is because that union hall is a reminder of how the ATD is not elected but appointed. How every contract has been concessionary in nature for the members but not the unelected of the ATD who make double if not triple what its members make. Once that has changed maybe they would fight a little harder and there would be more participation. We are powerless to change from within if we can not elect leaders to guide us or share in the sacrafices they have signed off on. Lead by example would be a step in the right direction. It seems the lifestyle of the ATD is OK for them but not for its members.

 

[rampdude]

Let's not forget the "me,me,me!" society.

When people just think of themselves (without considering the common good of others) one can only expect the outcome.

A unioin takes the efforts of ALL involved. Most members today just pay dues, expect the world, expect it now and have no vision for the future.

When I look back at the union bretheren of the past, the sacrifices they made to instill a union where they worked and the hopes of what future they saw I have to think just about all of them are turning in their graves right now!

 

[Bob Owens]

In todays day and age with most members working two jobs the wife working and taking care of the kids spare time is hard to come by. If just making a meeting is going to change things then why not do a podcast or have the meeting on a video conference. Members can e-mail in questions or suggestions to be answered at the meeting. There would be more participation from the members if the meeting were made more accessible. Why not video the meetine and put it on utube. I dont need to rub elbows with the members I see on a daily basis but if there is info that needs to get to the membership then maybe its time to deliver it using a different medium other than the monthly union hall. Enough of the excuses lets take a proactive approach to changing the archaic way of doing things. Just a thought...

You may also want to go back and read post 114
The lack of participation or turnout is because that union hall is a reminder of how the ATD is not elected but appointed. How every contract has been concessionary in nature for the members but not the unelected of the ATD who make double if not triple what its members make. Once that has changed maybe they would fight a little harder and there would be more participation. We are powerless to change from within if we can not elect leaders to guide us or share in the sacrafices they have signed off on. Lead by example would be a step in the right direction. It seems the lifestyle of the ATD is OK for them but not for its members.

The question of Leadership failing or membership failing is not one that can be 100% this way or that but the overwhelming responsibility for the success of the group lies with the leadership. Leaders need to find the key to motivate, inspire and lead, not an easy task, but that more than any other cause is what makes the difference between a success or failure.

After being told for decades that every loss is the fault of the members its hard for some to see the truth for what it is. Many Union leaders cling to old ineffective methods and expect to get swept along by the members instead of leading them, they expect to ride the wave instead of lead the charge. They judge participation by whether or not the workers are willing to make meaningless sacrifices, such as attending meetings for the sake of attending meetings, then use their reluctance to do so as an excuse to sit back, collect their six figure salaries and see everything from the employers perspective instead of the members. They peddle poor concessionary deals then turn around and say "well you voted for it". "Lets go walk around in circles then come in and work all the overtime, that'll show em how strong we are". The workers are faced with such hypocritical message sending or going to their second jobs so they can keep a roof over their heads. When they choose the later they are accused of failing their union. The same people who bring back and endorse the concessions are the same people who blame the members for accepting them and not participating enough. Then they wonder why they've lost the following of the members and the members are not willing to make sacrifices for meaningless acts that some interpret as a show of strength.

We have very few people attend meetings, and it doesnt bother me. Why? Because there are other methods of getting the message out. The internet gives us the power to cheaply distribute information instantly and broadly, we see its power in the Middle East, we saw it with the election of Obama. I feel that, although we certainly have a lot of room for improvement and it will take a while before we reach an adequate density of militantcy, our members are better informed than they've ever been. As far as our members supporting us 94% of the members in our Local voted against the American Airlines TA despite the fact that the last thing that every single member saw before they voted was an insert that was basically a vote "yes" message. Apparently 6% of our members didnt get or agree with the message we put out, and I can live with that.

For those who think that somehow todays Union "members" are inferior consider this which has been attributed to Socrates;

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."

And this from Plato

:"What is happening to our young
people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

Think about this for a moment, what is more likely, that the huge masses of members are different and inferior or the small number of leaders are? One of the dysfunctions I feel that the undemocratic systems that most unions employ to elect leaders is that "leaders" who assume power often surround themselves with followers, not people who could possibly become a threat to their leadership position. So as long as leaders can pretty much hand pick their successors, which is pretty much how most unions end up, there will be a steady decline in leadership ability. They in effect really become administrators. In the TWU they are fond of taking "leaders" that the members reject through the electoral process on the Local level and promoting them within the ranks of the International, if that isnt a direct smack in the face to the membership I dont know what is. Themembersip removes these people , then the International saves them from returning to work under the agreement they endorsed and doubles their income plus other perks and place them in positions above the people that the members choose. The strict no-raid policies that unions have only helps foster this degredation. Union members are for the most part given the choice of poor union leadership or no union at all. More and more workers are settling for the "no union" option and the "administators" that run unions just cant grasp the reason why.

Ramp dude cites

"When people just think of themselves (without considering the common good of others) one can only expect the outcome. "

Well what type of example are our leaders setting when they tell their members to accept concessions while they continue to get raises and lose nothing? Doesnt that make them more like management than like us? Arent they saying the same thing through their actions if not their rhetoric? "Concessions are for you but not me".