UAL A&p's and related have a T/A

[xUT]

People need to wake up and vote using their wallets and not the hot button issues, the playing field in this country needs to be leveled.

Vote for whom?

How many candidates ran with a plank of 'lobby reform' and how many actually did anything?
Big business and lobbyists run this show on a 'global' agenda and we are just so much cannon fodder.
We have demopublicans running the show now and I don't see any difference. Do you?

Why won't the NMB release the AA FA's so they can seek self help?
*** Bad For Business ***

The problem is that there is no 'party line' that can be trusted and the crappy choices we have amounts to voting for whom you think will cause the least damage and 'hopefully' fulfill some of their campaign promises.

Certainly, the great messiah NoBama hasn't changed anything and most of his actions parrot republicrats.

We can run a whole new thread on this debate, but I'll probably get sent to the cornfield...

B) xUT

 

[delldude]

With this post its clear that some mechanic at one time or another clearly pissed you off. Well what can I say to that? Sorry? There are thousands of mechanics and not every mechanic is responsible for the actions of every other mechanic. But after posts like this I can understand if not condone why a mechanic may have responded to you the way he did. You are behaving like an ass.

Mechanics are licensed by the FAA after passing a series of written, oral and practical exams. Normally after a few thousand hours of classroom training. They usually pay for this training out of their own pockets and have put in several years of work towards a career before they ever get a paycheck. Then when he gets there he goes to a union meeting and has someone like you saying things like you are saying here and has to ask himself"Do I really need this?". Why is a mechanic an elitist when like a pilot he invested time and money into a career and then has a desire to be in a union of people who have done the same? Have you ever seen Mechanics put up barriers to prevent you from doing the same? Why arent Flight Attendants elitists? Are there any unions out there where Flight Attendants are in a mixed class local? Why do you tolerate Pilots and Flight attendants having their own unions but not mechanics? Half the AFL-CIO is made up of what you call "Elistist unions, well let me tell you something, if we follow your example the Industrial unions will be the next ones wiped out. We need to learn to repsect each other and recognize that we all have value instead of cheering when our mutual enemy wipes out fellow unionists that we had a dissagreement with.

Go ahead, sit back and continue to revell in the fact that the Mechanics at NWA got their asses handed to them but what exactly did you prove? You claim that it proved that AMFA was wrong, well the fact is that the IAM and the AFL-CIO had the opportunity to prove they were right, but they didnt. If they had stepped in and bailed AMFA out not only would they have proved AMFA wrong but they would have proved that they were right. My feeling is that it was their own uncertainty and lack of confidence that stopped them from what could have been not only a victoty for labor but a slam dunk for the AFL-CIO.

By the way MROs have existed for a long time. They dont affect wages as much as you'd like to think, certainly not as much as Hudson General, Swissport etc affect your wages.

I don't think you have to lecture 700 on mechanic 101 Bob. I remember you two dancing many times before.....you won't find a more stand up trade unionist than 700UW Bob. Why?? Because I worked PIT during the times he refers to and was in close personal contact almost on a daily basis, and oh, I almost forgot....I am a mechanic.

I find your reference to "why didn't the IAM and AFL_CIO step in and bail out AMFA" quite laughable at the very least.
Why didn't UAL and Conti step in and bail out US Airways when we were down and out??

 

[700UW]

Vote for whom?

How many candidates ran with a plank of 'lobby reform' and how many actually did anything?
Big business and lobbyists run this show on a 'global' agenda and we are just so much cannon fodder.
We have demopublicans running the show now and I don't see any difference. Do you?

Why won't the NMB release the AA FA's so they can seek self help?
*** Bad For Business ***

The problem is that there is no 'party line' that can be trusted and the crappy choices we have amounts to voting for whom you think will cause the least damage and 'hopefully' fulfill some of their campaign promises.

Certainly, the great messiah NoBama hasn't changed anything and most of his actions parrot republicrats.

We can run a whole new thread on this debate, but I'll probably get sent to the cornfield...

B) xUT

Because the RLA is a law for business, it is in place to prevent the stoppage of interstate commerce, that is why we need lawmakers who are willing to change it.

The NMB is just following the law, why do you think CBAs under the RLA dont expire and become amendable?

To prevent the stoppage of interstate commerce.

 

[Bob Owens]

I find your reference to "why didn't the IAM and AFL_CIO step in and bail out AMFA" quite laughable at the very least.
Why didn't UAL and Conti step in and bail out US Airways when we were down and out??

So what you are saying is that Unions are a business, no different. What you fail to realize is that capital, even when they are competitors, stick together when it comes to screwing labor.

The fact is that the AFL-CIO had the opportunity to prove to AMFA that they needed the help of other unionists to beat a determined corporation that had the full support of other capitalists, instead they proved to corporations that unions, despite all they have lost, are still very willing to let other unions get picked off. It proved they learned nothing from PATCO and more than likely is a contributing factor to what we see today as Capital goes after government workers. To you and 700, in your narrow minded cultish world AMFA is the enemy, even more so than USAIR management, to me there are unions and there is capitol. AMFA was union, and unions should not assist Capitol in the destruction of another union, no matter what the circumstances. I guess that the difference between someone who truly believes in unionism and a cultist who knows the right things to say but has blind loyalty to a name or a logo instead the the cause.

From a narrow financial perspective busting AMFA at NWA made no sense. They spent more to bust them that it would have cost to settle with them, NWA never fully recovered either and they were bought out by Delta, and we see how the IAM and other unions were rewarded there. However from an Industry perspective it made perfect sense, the mechanics, especially those who were not directly impacted have been psycologically scarred ever since. Even today where we know that the schools arent pumping enough out and OT is climbing many are still uncertain and afraid to take a stand. Still today we have union members and leaders alike saying "look at what happened to Northwest". As much as people like 700 try to spin it as an AMFA loss its considered almost universally by mechanics as a loss that is reflective of the labor movement.

700 may very well be a dedicated IAM supporter, but his (and the many like him)inability to see beyond the interests of the IAM are one of the causes for the decline of the labor movement as a whole.

 

[xUT]

I don't think you have to lecture 700 on mechanic 101 Bob. I remember you two dancing many times before.....you won't find a more stand up trade unionist than 700UW Bob. Why?? Because I worked PIT during the times he refers to and was in close personal contact almost on a daily basis, and oh, I almost forgot....I am a mechanic.

He has my respect (on most issues) as well. But none of 'US' are perfect. Hopefully, labor can learn a lesson though this last debacle and turn things around, or at least mitigate the ensuing carnage that's coming down the pike.

Why didn't UAL and Conti step in and bail out US Airways when we were down and out??

Well, you got me there dude, please expound on how UAL could have bailed out US Airways, I can't see it from here...

B) xUT

 

[gatemech]

Way too much union bashing. What needs to be discussed here is how to stop the T/A from
passing the vote. I'm not sure how to do it. I guess my part will be to vote "NO"

 

[787nightmare]

So what you are saying is that Unions are a business, no different. What you fail to realize is that capital, even when they are competitors, stick together when it comes to screwing labor.

The fact is that the AFL-CIO had the opportunity to prove to AMFA that they needed the help of other unionists to beat a determined corporation that had the full support of other capitalists, instead they proved to corporations that unions, despite all they have lost, are still very willing to let other unions get picked off. It proved they learned nothing from PATCO and more than likely is a contributing factor to what we see today as Capital goes after government workers. To you and 700, in your narrow minded cultish world AMFA is the enemy, even more so than USAIR management, to me there are unions and there is capitol. AMFA was union, and unions should not assist Capitol in the destruction of another union, no matter what the circumstances. I guess that the difference between someone who truly believes in unionism and a cultist who knows the right things to say but has blind loyalty to a name or a logo instead the the cause.

From a narrow financial perspective busting AMFA at NWA made no sense. They spent more to bust them that it would have cost to settle with them, NWA never fully recovered either and they were bought out by Delta, and we see how the IAM and other unions were rewarded there. However from an Industry perspective it made perfect sense, the mechanics, especially those who were not directly impacted have been psycologically scarred ever since. Even today where we know that the schools arent pumping enough out and OT is climbing many are still uncertain and afraid to take a stand. Still today we have union members and leaders alike saying "look at what happened to Northwest". As much as people like 700 try to spin it as an AMFA loss its considered almost universally by mechanics as a loss that is reflective of the labor movement.

700 may very well be a dedicated IAM supporter, but his (and the many like him)inability to see beyond the interests of the IAM are one of the causes for the decline of the labor movement as a whole.

Bob...stop it. You're wasting your time with these guys...
They'll never get it.

 

[delldude]

So what you are saying is that Unions are a business, no different. What you fail to realize is that capital, even when they are competitors, stick together when it comes to screwing labor.

The fact is that the AFL-CIO had the opportunity to prove to AMFA that they needed the help of other unionists to beat a determined corporation that had the full support of other capitalists, instead they proved to corporations that unions, despite all they have lost, are still very willing to let other unions get picked off. It proved they learned nothing from PATCO and more than likely is a contributing factor to what we see today as Capital goes after government workers. To you and 700, in your narrow minded cultish world AMFA is the enemy, even more so than USAIR management, to me there are unions and there is capitol. AMFA was union, and unions should not assist Capitol in the destruction of another union, no matter what the circumstances. I guess that the difference between someone who truly believes in unionism and a cultist who knows the right things to say but has blind loyalty to a name or a logo instead the the cause.

From a narrow financial perspective busting AMFA at NWA made no sense. They spent more to bust them that it would have cost to settle with them, NWA never fully recovered either and they were bought out by Delta, and we see how the IAM and other unions were rewarded there. However from an Industry perspective it made perfect sense, the mechanics, especially those who were not directly impacted have been psycologically scarred ever since. Even today where we know that the schools arent pumping enough out and OT is climbing many are still uncertain and afraid to take a stand. Still today we have union members and leaders alike saying "look at what happened to Northwest". As much as people like 700 try to spin it as an AMFA loss its considered almost universally by mechanics as a loss that is reflective of the labor movement.

700 may very well be a dedicated IAM supporter, but his (and the many like him)inability to see beyond the interests of the IAM are one of the causes for the decline of the labor movement as a whole.

By Joshua Freed, AP Airlines Writer

AMFA worked with Delta to iron out the seniority integration of Northwest and Delta mechanics, a process Sutton said went well. He said AMFA mailed union cards to as many Northwest and Delta mechanics as it had addresses for, but the response suggested there was no point in pursuing an election.

When Northwest sought steep pay cuts in 2005 in an effort to avoid bankruptcy, AMFA led about 4,400 workers out on strike. It was a huge gamble that failed spectacularly. Northwest suffered some operational hiccups but kept flying. Northwest replaced them all by the end of the year with a mix of new hires and union members who crossed the picket line.

If unionism is such a touchy feely love fest why all the horsecrap when you have a representation drive and vote?

My union is better than your union......

My airline is better than your airline......

Looks like both are capitalist based ventures to me.

To your finger pointing at IAM being responsible for the decline in the labor movement.....You are in another reality for sure. I place the decline squarely at the feet of the membership, period.Few are involved,few attend meetings,"got to take the kids to the theatre you know", nobody has time to stand up for their rights as long as someone else does it, just like you want AFL-CIO to do.

NWA busting AMFA was worth the expense because it was part of the package.NWA smelled blood in the water.....weakness in the core membership and exploited it.They bounced one union and look at all the discord.....Mgmt loves that stuff....

AMFA ran organizing drives at US Air dude....never flushed.
Why, because nobody gave a crap.
Unions are a dying breed dude......deal with it.

AMFA rep was asked "what is AMFA going to do for me"....reply- 'Nothing, you're going to do it for yourself'....I thought ,' thats the end of this here,' and I was right.

 

[Bob Owens]

If unionism is such a touchy feely love fest why all the horsecrap when you have a representation drive and vote?

My union is better than your union......

My airline is better than your airline......

Looks like both are capitalist based ventures to me.

To your finger pointing at IAM being responsible for the decline in the labor movement.....You are in another reality for sure. I place the decline squarely at the feet of the membership, period.Few are involved,few attend meetings,"got to take the kids to the theatre you know", nobody has time to stand up for their rights as long as someone else does it, just like you want AFL-CIO to do.

NWA busting AMFA was worth the expense because it was part of the package.NWA smelled blood in the water.....weakness in the core membership and exploited it.They bounced one union and look at all the discord.....Mgmt loves that stuff....

AMFA ran organizing drives at US Air dude....never flushed.
Why, because nobody gave a crap.
Unions are a dying breed dude......deal with it.

AMFA rep was asked "what is AMFA going to do for me"....reply- 'Nothing, you're going to do it for yourself'....I thought ,' thats the end of this here,' and I was right.

The IAM, as well as many other unions (including mine) are responsible for the decline of the labor movement. To blame the membership is bull. So they dont go to meetings that result in nothing. You say they must go, why, to shore up the self confidence of the leaders who give themselves six figue salaries, union paid for cars and other perks while telling the members that times are tough and they need to give concessions? They should do nothing as their pay is slashed and benifits gutted but then make every rally for some issue that pales in comparasion to what they've gone through.

Organizations, whether they are unions, businesses , or Governments fail because of the leaders. Blaming the members is a cop out. If you want to be a leader then lead, you cant lead if all you do is keep looking behind you to make sure everyone is still there. Most of our Unions out there sit back and use the members as an excuse to do nothing. They complain about poor turnouts to events that really dont do much to improve the workers situation and avoid the real fight, avoid taking actions that would.

Look at this TA. Sure some of the language is good but the wage just about restores these guys to what they were making in real terms AFTER the BK. How many of the IBT guys are making less today than they were in 2001? Then you wonder why members dont use what little free time they have to go and attend meetings put on by officials that are on the clock.

 

[delldude]

Organizations, whether they are unions, businesses , or Governments fail because of the leaders. Blaming the members is a cop out. If you want to be a leader then lead, you cant lead if all you do is keep looking behind you to make sure everyone is still there. Most of our Unions out there sit back and use the members as an excuse to do nothing. They complain about poor turnouts to events that really dont do much to improve the workers situation and avoid the real fight, avoid taking actions that would.

Its apathy and I don't got time,I got better things to do, I pay dues, you go and tell me what went on.

Unionism on its deathbed in the USA and one wonders why Trumpka and Andy Stern and others are across the pond organizing?
They ain't making money here. Period.

 

[xUT]

Its apathy and I don't got time,I got better things to do, I pay dues, you go and tell me what went on.

Unionism on its deathbed in the USA and one wonders why Trumpka and Andy Stern and others are across the pond organizing?
They ain't making money here. Period.

When I was in the IAM we had free pizza and beer after meetings, sometime hot dog nights.
It was always crowded. Whomever does this again will get a lot of participation...
The problem was AMFA only had cookies and coffee, who needs that?

 

[delldude]

When I was in the IAM we had free pizza and beer after meetings, sometime hot dog nights.
It was always crowded. Whomever does this again will get a lot of participation...
The problem was AMFA only had cookies and coffee, who needs that?

Sad to say IAM PIT packed down some pizza, couple beers and out the door(3-11) and still we couldn't get a quorum.

 

[xUT]

Sad to say IAM PIT packed down some pizza, couple beers and out the door(3-11) and still we couldn't get a quorum.

That is sad. When you can't bribe a good unionist with pizza and beer then unionism is truly dead...
Was the pizza and beer before the meeting or after?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The last few pages of this thread have hit the nail on the head....member apathy.

Unfortunately most members view the union as an insurance policy and their dues a monthly premium. Its one of the things I've found most ironic about this deteriorating situation that members want old school union results without providing the one thing which those results were based on .... strong member participation.

TSH

 

[delldude]

The last few pages of this thread have hit the nail on the head....member apathy.

Unfortunately most members view the union as an insurance policy and their dues a monthly premium. Its one of the things I've found most ironic about this deteriorating situation that members want old school union results without providing the one thing which those results were based on .... strong member participation.

TSH

Great post TSH.