US Pilot Labor Thread 10/5 to 10/12 KEEP ON TOPIC

[machtuck]

USAPAWATCH.COM

PHX/LAS pilots, just call your rep!

The May 15, 2008 USAPA update contained the following:

“The Board then addressed their concerns over the lack of Representatives for the PHX and LAS domiciles. The board agreed that it is in the interest of all US Airways pilots to have access and full use of committees such as Safety, Scheduling and R & I. The BPR further agreed that greater participation from US Airways pilots in the Phoenix and Las Vegas domiciles would facilitate completion of a single collective bargaining agreement. By unanimous resolution the Board then passed a resolution that every effort would be made to recruit Phoenix and Las Vegas domicile members for positions on all Association committees, with priority being given to include Phoenix and/or Las Vegas domiciled pilots on the USAPA Merger and Negotiating Advisory Committees.â€￾

Five months have passed from the date this was written and the PHX and LAS pilots are still without representation. Mr. Bradford, can you please explain this oversight?

At the very least, the West pilots deserve local council meetings and visits from the national officers. Mr. Bradford, have you or any of your self appointed representatives visited the PHX or LAS crew rooms or made any attempt to hold information sessions?

Remember Mr. Bradford, we’re not just watching what you say, but everything you do(or don’t do in this case).

I'm sorry to make this point, but it seems our west friend Tiger has lost his tongue...or his sources of material,(as well as his job..be sure to thank your ex-MEC) so he has resorted to using a full-time press-oriented sympathizer out west for all his posts..

How weak from what looked like a nice enough and smart guy...

Guess not.

It's OK..the PR west machine is in full-tilt..I can see why you all default to that avenue.

Chili:..as you well know, your termination is going to be arbitrated...and any technicalities fixed and re-filed.....fret-not...your term is coming....as are the hundreds to follow once the roadway is cleared.

Seems the West pilots are somewhat alarmed over the DOH list...

I wonder why?
Maybe you now can finally see just exactly where you fall in the "big picture" of seniority...

hurts, huh?
DOH...with DOB setting the slots within any DOH class...perfect...the way it's always been....but such a letdown to the bloodhounds who thought the Holy Grail had finally arrived...


Whatever.

The Press Corps is in full-swing announcing the financial woes of USAPA...and the impending failure of them as a whole. The ones going broke live in PHX and are getting FUR and downgraded...

Pathetic.

Tiger: grow a set and speak for yourself...or at least fake-it and paraphrase...the cut and paste is so nubile...

Yep...that seniority list is getting a lot of attention...just look at it....where does that #1 Airbus CA in PHX fit in?...about 700 on the DOH list....(bid the 330 when you can, sir)..but in all fairness, he can be #1 on the A-320 in PHX which is all he could ever aspire to pre-merger.

Whats wrong with that? (other than preventing the full-blown theft of seniority that the west is looking for...)

 

[flybynite]

Ya'll are such a bunch of nimrods.

Back and forth...back and forth...

You make my head hurt.

And don't you come back at me and tell me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

You guys have been at it for 4 years.....and it's time to let it go.

Ya'll remind me of a nasty divorce that goes on and on and on. It's absurd and unhealthy.
You pick and pick and pick at each other which delights the company to hell and back.

The fa's are trying to get a contract and you guys are pissing in the wind and messing us up in the process.

Why don't you guys shut the f up and let the women work this one out? Ya'll are dropping the ball on negotiations.

In fact...we'll send a few of our gals your way to get ya'll back on track. You need us. We're better at this than you. We don't eat our young.

 

[EastUS]

Ya'll are such a bunch of nimrods.

In fact...we'll send a few of our gals your way to get ya'll back on track. You need us. We're better at this than you. .

No argument from me ma'am....You folks had the required common sense to go straight date of hire, as it should be.

 

[N903AW]

Why don't you guys shut the f up and let the women work this one out? Ya'll are dropping the ball on negotiations.

In fact...we'll send a few of our gals your way to get ya'll back on track. You need us. We're better at this than you. We don't eat our young.

AMEN flybynite! AMEN!!! The latest Inflight Must Read and Bulletin was issued today. Our female FAs are no longer allowed to wear the dress or skirt because when they bend over in the aisle the passengers might see their balls!! It's time for the pilots (on BOTH sides) to grow a pair and work this out!

 

[Tiger 1050]

I'm sorry to make this point, but it seems our west friend Tiger has lost his tongue...or his sources of material,(as well as his job..be sure to thank your ex-MEC) so he has resorted to using a full-time press-oriented sympathizer out west for all his posts..

How weak from what looked like a nice enough and smart guy...

Guess not.

It's OK..the PR west machine is in full-tilt..I can see why you all default to that avenue.

Chili:..as you well know, your termination is going to be arbitrated...and any technicalities fixed and re-filed.....fret-not...your term is coming....as are the hundreds to follow once the roadway is cleared.

Seems the West pilots are somewhat alarmed over the DOH list...

I wonder why?
Maybe you now can finally see just exactly where you fall in the "big picture" of seniority...

hurts, huh?
DOH...with DOB setting the slots within any DOH class...perfect...the way it's always been....but such a letdown to the bloodhounds who thought the Holy Grail had finally arrived...


Whatever.

The Press Corps is in full-swing announcing the financial woes of USAPA...and the impending failure of them as a whole. The ones going broke live in PHX and are getting FUR and downgraded...

Pathetic.

Tiger: grow a set and speak for yourself...or at least fake-it and paraphrase...the cut and paste is so nubile...

Yep...that seniority list is getting a lot of attention...just look at it....where does that #1 Airbus CA in PHX fit in?...about 700 on the DOH list....(bid the 330 when you can, sir)..but in all fairness, he can be #1 on the A-320 in PHX which is all he could ever aspire to pre-merger.

Whats wrong with that? (other than preventing the full-blown theft of seniority that the west is looking for...)

Mach,

I am still a nice guy. Smart or not could probably be debated.

Why do you let it get to you so much and then turn around and make statements like "I'm just so over this." We differ in opinion. You believe USAPA is morally righteous. I believe they are morally bankrupt. The "DOH" list is proof of that to me. Did you know that there are shuttle pilots who's DOH is not recognized? Did you know that this list does not even consider LOS in some cases? I am still confused as to what kind of list this is! I am junior to pilots that have less LOS than I do! So tell me why I should support USAPA and it's ideology? Honestly if you were in my shoes would you support them? I would have to say no. In fact all USAPA supporters demonstrated the exact same behavior as I demonstrate now except it was to frustrate ALPA. The only difference is that this behavior I display now frustrates your personal endeavor just as you frustrated mine by removing ALPA and helping to institute USAPA's ideals. We probably will never see eye to eye, but that's okay. It's what makes the world go 'round and 'round.

I wish you a good day...

Tiger

 

[cubfan]

Ex-Simmons? I know a bunch were going there at about that time!

no ex britt left there in 12/88. Was part of the flow-thru with CO mainline, left because CO was in 2nd BK Lorenzo at the helm, would have had DOH sometime in 88, can't remember the month, no matter when I actually took an avail. class. Could have stayed at CO x-press for up to 3 classes at mainline. If only I had a crystal ball. I wonder where that would put me today?

 

[nic4us]

Yep...that seniority list is getting a lot of attention...just look at it....where does that #1 Airbus CA in PHX fit in?...about 700 on the DOH list....(bid the 330 when you can, sir)..but in all fairness, he can be #1 on the A-320 in PHX which is all he could ever aspire to pre-merger.


Machtuck,

This is where the problem lies with me. You do not get to decide for him what his career expectations were premerger. In fact this pilot flew the 747 for AWE, and could have expected to bid the 340 that was supposed to come for the china route. He had flow 4 engine widebody across the Pacific before for this company, something no east pilot had done,so to guarantee his right he should have been made numero uno here.

You are deciding his career expectation, and you are biased as to what it could have been, because of your own risk if he is awarded something that may conflict with your interest.

He could argue, with the preponderance of evidence as support, that those 700 in front of him had a career expectation of immenent unemployment.

So the only fair solution is to bring in a third party to decide both pilots fate. We did that, and the compromise reached was accepted by the company as meeting their criteria for a valid seniority award. USAPA has absolutely no right to renegotiate a one sided list to enhance the east expectations over those of the west. The Nicolau decision will be the seniority list for US Airways if we do not fragment or merge, and if you or anone else cannot live with that then I recommend that you quit.

 

[machtuck]

Just a few points:

1) the "re-ordering" of previously determined lists didn't occur because those lists had been codified and finalized by inclusion in several contracts over the years...(you'll note that hasn't occured with your Nic)

2) Nic4us...pardon my demeanor, but the 330's were never coming to AWA in PHX or LAS...(pre-merger expectations is what we are talking about here, right?)...PRE-MERGER, AWA had no wide-bodies, no TA flying, no 76's....so I'm not following your logic about this.

3) Making any assertations about "pre-merger expectations" only paints the AWA guys into a smaller corner...narrowbodies in LAS and PHX...with possible BK/liquidation in the future.
Likewise, with the East, the widebodies were already in the career paths of many, were being flown by many, we had been BK several times, and possibly going to liquidate soon.

Now, if you want to discuss POST-merger expectations, whereby we both "saved each other"..then you have to assign a time-tested method to provide a fair and equitable seniority list integration taking into account DOH/LOS principles, and provide opportunity for POST merger possibilities to all....East and West.

The #1 AWA pilot can bid the 330 if he can hold it....so can you. Just like it works within your own seniority system in PHX and LAS...

Nic in no way did that, it was an injustice that flies in the face of all union-based principles, and why DAL/NW are using 3 guys instead of 1...and why UAL is revisiting the very position that THEY THEMSELVES were instrumental in changing in the first place.

Of course, it's just my opinion.

 

[GuntherA320]

I was just reviewing the crew news from 9/30 in CLT. Doug made some interesting comments during the F/A session. I think both sides can take something from it, however I will say that the company appears to be staying very neutral. That being said, notice Parkers use of past tense when talking about the seniority issues. Here is the transcript. It is verbatum.

Doug Parker: It’s the right thing to do, We have to get the pilots and flight attendants onto one contract. And I’d like to do that as soon as possible. The flight attendants don’t need to wait for the pilots. Um we should be able to get through that without having the pilots done. The pilots had to get through this seniority integration issue. Throwing out a union…putting in a new union. All that stuff. And now we are negotiating with one union. I suspect….expect that we will be able to get to one contract with the pilots…..I don’t know…sometime….I don’t know the answer to the question because its not a unilateral decision. We made an offer that we think is very fair….uh ..we’ve got to go through negotiations. But the negotiations really just started in earnest….a couple of months ago…because we just got to one union.

Flight Attendant: But what about the seniority list?

Doug Parker: Yeah, but that will be part of a contract. You can’t have a contract without a seniority list. I call that all one thing. Right now there is a litigation going on on it. But we will get thru it one day….I don’t know when it is…but I’m certain it will be before you retire….and indeed it could be really soon…in the near term.

 

[N924PS]

At this point, neither "side" can be assured of realizing their entrenched position.

Until the myriad of legal proceedings comes to a conclusion, there is no resolution. Only continued uncertainty and glee from management as the pilots play right into their hands again. And while all this is happening, LOA 93 marches on for the East pilots, til 2009 and probably beyond.

 

[cleardirect]

Yep...that seniority list is getting a lot of attention...just look at it....where does that #1 Airbus CA in PHX fit in?...about 700 on the DOH list....(bid the 330 when you can, sir)..but in all fairness, he can be #1 on the A-320 in PHX which is all he could ever aspire to pre-merger.

Tuck,

If you are going to make up or intentionally misstate facts don’t make it so easy to disprove your lies. All anyone has to do is look at the published list.

USAPA DOH list shows Randy McNerlin P0001 as number 848. Not 700 something. That is a drop from 517 to 848. A loss of 331 numbers. That is our number 1 guy. The fence is not solid or permanent. So there is a very good chance that any number of those 847 pilots could come to PHX and move him from that number 1 position.

The DOH list places 81% of the west below Dean Covelo who was furloughed at the time of the merger. This list is a non starter. It is actually worse than the list fought for by the AAA MEC. So now using the tyranny of the majority you guys want to impose a career ending list on the west that you could not get through otherwise.

Before you start whining about the conditions and restrictions. That list is a joke. So I will not waste my time listing the ridiculous C&R. The first and major error is the pre-merger assumption.

Pre-merger AWA had 22 aircraft on order with 7 years upgrades. AAA was liquidating. The C&R do not maintain that pre-merger career expectations.

USAPA assumes that AWA was a regional carrier that was never going to grow beyond where we are after Doug cut us. That we would never add flights or destination. They also assume that AAA was only in bankruptcy for negotiating tactics. That AAA was going to take over the world. Total fantasy.

Next time you decide to speak, check the facts before repeating lies.

 

[EastUS]

This is where the problem lies with me. You do not get to decide for him what his career expectations were premerger. In fact this pilot flew the 747 for AWE, and could have expected to bid the 340 that was supposed to come for the china route. He had flow 4 engine widebody across the Pacific before for this company, something no east pilot had done,so to guarantee his right he should have been made numero uno here.

You are deciding his career expectation, and you are biased as to what it could have been, because of your own risk if he is awarded something that may conflict with your interest.

He could argue, with the preponderance of evidence as support, that those 700 in front of him had a career expectation of immenent unemployment.

Ah!..The old "expectations" nonsense yet again. OK then:

1) When said "numero uno" was flying a 747 for AWA..What were his "expectations" at that time? I'll take a wild guess that they figured on never being in less than a 747 ever again...??
2) Did anyone's "expectations" ever include 911?....the obscene oil pricing?.....this merger?
3) On what basis do all out west so easilly disregard the observations from upper managment that AWA would have shrunk or likely ceased to exist?...That, without this merger..AWA was pretty much toast?
4) Exactly what "expectations" did anyone out west EVER have for A330's to europe?
5) Given the current, real-world situation: Exactly where will you be and what will you be flying in 2 years?....10 years?..After all..you're basing everything on "expectations"..and it'd be both completely hilarious and yet fully instructive to see what your current set of the same are?

The "preponderance of evidence" strongly suggests that you, and anyone else EVER basing their lives on "expectations"..live said lives entirely within the confines of Fantasyland.

nic4us: "The Nicolau decision will be the seniority list for US Airways if we do not fragment or merge, and if you or anone else cannot live with that then I recommend that you quit." Rotsa' Ruck with that...but hey!..feel free to have whatever "expectations" you wish......just have the wisdom to realize that the real world and actual events will never be based on any such utter nonsense at all ....EVER...

Machtuck: "Nic in no way did that, it was an injustice that flies in the face of all union-based principles, and why DAL/NW are using 3 guys instead of 1...and why UAL is revisiting the very position that THEY THEMSELVES were instrumental in changing in the first place." Yeah...almost too "funny" for words. It's amazing how their "expectations" at United have apparently changed hugely through the test of time......

 

[machtuck]

Tuck,

If you are going to make up or intentionally misstate facts don’t make it so easy to disprove your lies. All anyone has to do is look at the published list.

USAPA DOH list shows Randy McNerlin P0001 as number 848. Not 700 something. That is a drop from 517 to 848. A loss of 331 numbers. That is our number 1 guy. The fence is not solid or permanent. So there is a very good chance that any number of those 847 pilots could come to PHX and move him from that number 1 position.

The DOH list places 81% of the west below Dean Covelo who was furloughed at the time of the merger. This list is a non starter. It is actually worse than the list fought for by the AAA MEC. So now using the tyranny of the majority you guys want to impose a career ending list on the west that you could not get through otherwise.

Before you start whining about the conditions and restrictions. That list is a joke. So I will not waste my time listing the ridiculous C&R. The first and major error is the pre-merger assumption.

Pre-merger AWA had 22 aircraft on order with 7 years upgrades. AAA was liquidating. The C&R do not maintain that pre-merger career expectations.

USAPA assumes that AWA was a regional carrier that was never going to grow beyond where we are after Doug cut us. That we would never add flights or destination. They also assume that AAA was only in bankruptcy for negotiating tactics. That AAA was going to take over the world. Total fantasy.

Next time you decide to speak, check the facts before repeating lies.

Whatever...I'm flying and not scouring the list like you and your friends are...if he is not 700, mistake...whatever...he is where he is based on DOH...and by DOB within a same DOH...very common methodology. Secondly, I also suggest you "check your facts" if we're splitting hairs here:

It's DEAN COLLELO(sp)...not COVELO

Was Airways IN LIQUIDATION?...or just NEAR liquidation, you said we WERE IN LIQUIDATION...I submit an untruth as well...

Was the 22 orders and 7 year upgrades AFTER 9/11? or before...

(I'm having a deja-vu moment of the AAA/UAL merger discussions about aircraft and upgrade times...)

Also, maybe you are unclear on what a VACANCY is.....any "cross-system" bidding is on a VACANCY basis ....so without any PHX CA vacancies, tell me how he loses his number 1 spot?...Your co-pilots are frothing at the mouth over their upgrades...are you suggesting they won't upgrade to fill that vacancy?...

physician, heal thyself.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I agree, all the "expectations" in the world do not add up to one dose of reality. After all, AAA's expectation in early '05 was for complete liquidation. But that was quickly - and conveniently - forgotten by most all eastyz. And, so likewise, the expectation the AWE pilots would never get the chance to fly widebodies, should be conveniently forgotten - westyz do now have that opportunity looming.

After All, the Nic provides for that opportunity.

That does not mean that we should ignore the "potential" that may exist in the future. Rumor has it that the NMB will soon begin investigating usap and will seriously question its inability to represent equally all the pilots it is supposed to be representing. Do I sense a receivership in our futures?

The rumble of war drums is becoming louder..........

 

[boeingplt]

It's DEAN COLLELO(sp)...not COVELO

I'm on your side but it's actually Colello...