US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9

[electricjet98]

Just Because You're Paranoid Doesn't mean they're NOT Out To Get You!

Unfortunately, postings from a web-board that was much more private than this was the basis for USAPA lawsuits against west pilots. Any "paranoia" is well grounded on fact and history.

 

[nostradamus]

Unfortunately, postings from a web-board that was much more private than this was the basis for USAPA lawsuits against west pilots. Any "paranoia" is well grounded on fact and history.

The postings on the america west web site used by USAPA were discussing criminal activity and conspiracy to commit and abet such. One of your pilots may show a friend the postings they find to another, any time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim;
Try 44-45 AWA pilots from October 1st, and another 50+ on November 1st.

Thanks for the correct info - obviously my assumption was way off.

I hadn't had a chance to muse on this earlier post:

According to Heminway’s declaration the “new hiresâ€￾ could be on the property until April 2009. The number the company used in court was 140 “extraâ€￾ pilots.

Sounds like Heminway is saying one of two things - there are about 45 pilots on the East list that are being furloughed before the new-hires are all gone (this one is suspect but I was wrong on the West pilot count), or he's pulling a meaningless number from somewhere to inflate the cost figure (this gets my vote).

The cost is a function of the number of non-new hire pilots that would need to be paid until the last of the new hires is furloughed - the furlough date could be the same for both. Now that I've looked at the West pay scale, it looks like $7,000/month per West pilot to be pay protected (if Airline Pilot Central has the figures right and that's for 5th year A320/737 F/O). If you use Oct 1 for the start of pay protection and April 1 for the end, that's 6 months, throw in payroll taxes, medical, retirement contribution, etc, and call it 10,000/month/pilot - that comes to a total of $570,000. Not a small sum, but not $800,000 either.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

Separate operations. Bottom line. america west pilots are being furloughed now because of this.

II. Period of Separate Operations
4. Pilots on the America West Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the
service of America West on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement
and pilots on the US Airways Seniority List will operate the aircraft in the
service of US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement.
a) The Airline Parties will not transfer aircraft

bottom line.

The reason 10 percent of the america west pilots are on the street and only 2 percent of Us Airways pilots is because the america west pilots and alpa. Hold your breath untill you turn blue in the face, that ill show em.

You failed to mention that the bottom america west pilots were expendable, bye bye mitch, it will continue. Thank you for your service sir. Good job and helping the more "senior pilots enjoy a temporary raise after undercutting the industry pilot pay standards for years."

Nostro, key is #4. We lost most of our merger a/c in 2005 when we still had 1700+ on furlough. Our fleet has been stable for almost 3 years. In that time over 300 retired and over 500 resigned/refused recall. The TA allowd LCC to reduce fleet size further. Ours was already programmed in. The Wests werent. The west entitlement generation never expected the gravy train could end. With our junior pilot age 42 in 2005, we knew the realities this is an industry of hiring, furloughs, downgrades and seat/equiptment stagnation. The west entitlement generation missed that class at aviation junior college.

From what I heard about Wye River from 2 who were there, mitch actually started to "get it," but only after ALPO rumors of LCC cutbacks. ALPO actually called one right. He knew exactly where he was on the list. LOS would put over 500 pilots blow him and not near furlough. ALPOs last ditch effort was to get LOS. Then ALPO would agree to do whatever it took to get around a vote, and a contract in place before the furloughs started. That would save the mother ship, all ALPO cared about.

Now mitchs best chance to avoid the ax is USAPAs 2 TA disputes. Unfortunately, he and his crew dont get it. Never will. snuper.

John, Mitch keep listening to the posts. People that do not have a stake in this are making very good sense to you.

Bottom line, 175 pilots out of work. Each has parents and children that rely on them to make the right decision. They rely on you to look out for their best interests. Go ahead blame it on East or USAPA, but gentlemen, that does not put food on their table. You are in charge.

But go ahead continue listening to your supporters, not the Ceo that said these jobs are not coming back, do what is convenient for you.

Nostra, bottom line also is west took a stand at Wye Rvr. Now theyre reaping what their chutzpah sowed. LOS should have been a no-brainer. Unfortunately for them, the west gen-xers hitting the streets arent getting the truth. I bet there are west furloughees not going after other jobs, waiting for their AOL/AWAPPA boats to come in. To the gen-xers and millenniums, us tail-end baby boomers have been there. We dont buy the captain boat before the boat arrives at the dock. I might not have learned much in the coast guard, but I did learn “semper paratus.â€￾ snuper.

 

[sharktooth]

It's my experience that the company violates the contract regularly.

It is about time.

A former RIDC (management-type) dude told me that each year the management types get together and come up with a list of 100 areas to "interdict" the pilot contract with, knowing full well the (former) MEC can only handle 10 or 15 per cent. RIDC cedes those areas they "lose" on and sweep the other 85+% of interdicted areas onto their side. It depends on an employee group not thinking that management might attack their contract outside Section 6. Works every time. Especially with ALPA.

They deliberately interdict your contract. When confronted, they claim incompetence or laziness. So far, it has worked great. Just look at the fuel school. That should have been just cause for a one day shutdown, yet, for whatever reason, pilots breezed right past that particularly odious pile of manure. What will it take for the pilot group to uphold their professionalism? or, perhaps, the pilots have none.

The company does shutdowns all the time. Just look at Thanksgiving day. Few revenue NA trips. Nearly all NA trips are deadheads. Some nimrod in marketing decided Europe observes Thanksgiving, perhaps because the Tempe morons basically have a regional mentality, like co-Cain.

BTW, next time we have Tempe Tourists complaining about PAs, I will personally be happy to point the other passengers at those idiots. It will be like tossing chum into shark infested waters. Should be interesting. I'll save the dog-tags for Dougie. I promise.

 

[cleardirect]

The postings on the america west web site used by USAPA were discussing criminal activity and conspiracy to commit and abet such. One of your pilots may show a friend the postings they find to another, any time.

Incorrect! Before you misstate any more facts or make anymore false statements check the record.

That case was dismissed by a federal judge with prejudice. No criminal activity at all. No conspiracy. Only the malicious conduct of an out of control association attacking the pilots they claim to represent.

 

[Furlough Fodder]

Unfortunately for them, the west gen-xers hitting the streets arent getting the truth. I bet there are west furloughees not going after other jobs, waiting for their AOL/AWAPPA boats to come in. To the gen-xers and millenniums, us tail-end baby boomers have been there. We dont buy the captain boat before the boat arrives at the dock. I might not have learned much in the coast guard, but I did learn “semper paratus.â€￾ snuper.

Wow! Way to stereotype a whole group! This has got to be one of the most presumptuous and completely inaccurate posts I have seen in a long time. If you really believe your own characterization of the pilots who have been laid off during this cycle of furloughs then you are way out of touch with reality.

 

[nostradamus]

Incorrect! Before you misstate any more facts or make anymore false statements check the record.

That case was dismissed by a federal judge with prejudice. No criminal activity at all. No conspiracy. Only the malicious conduct of an out of control association attacking the pilots they claim to represent.

USAPA vs america west pilots


Your pilots were involved in activity that is against the law. The link above explains. If it is not true, why are you not suing for defamation for those that are accusing you of defication. You keep bringing up the denial. Dumb.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

USAPA vs america west pilots


Your pilots were involved in activity that is against the law. The link above explains. If it is not true, why are you not suing for defamation for those that are accusing you of defication. You keep bringing up the denial. Dumb.

nosty -

Was there ever anything in that frivolous suit that was proven, beyond a shadow of doubt, in a court of law?

Answer: no.

There was a beneficial side effect, however. Having it tossed probably saved usapa a bunch of legal fees. Poor Seham must have been disappointed.

By the way. How many times are you going to bring this up? You've mentioned something about poop in probably at least 50 of your posts here. Also dumb.

 

[fodase]

"USAPA Update

November 2, 2008

Item One: On or about October 29, 2008, five individual pilots filed an eleven-count complaint against USAPA and certain of its officers in the United States District Court for the Western District of North Carolina. The Plaintiffs seek certification of a plaintiff-class of former Eastern and Empire Airlines.

Notwithstanding the number of counts, the essence of the lawsuit is that USAPA is required to apply its constitutionally date-of-hire seniority integration objective retroactively to previously implemented seniority integrations pre-dating the US Airways-America West merger.

In USAPA’s view, the lawsuit has no merit. Retroactive application of the DOH objective to previously implemented seniority integrations is contrary to the intent of the drafters of the USAPA Constitution and runs counter to general rules of constitutional interpretation.

Moreover, establishing a precedent of re-opening previously implemented DOH seniority integrations would work to undermine the permanency of what USAPA is now trying to accomplish in the context of the US Airways-America West merger.

This litigation is ill-timed in that it will constitute a significant distraction in the context of our efforts to prevent court-ordered implementation of the Nicolau List. Nevertheless, USAPA is confident that this new lawsuit will ultimately be dismissed."


Well, so usapa is in one court saying that "seniority" is negotiable at anytime, meanwhile they will be in another court saying they can't change "seniority". I love it.

 

[electricjet98]

Your pilots were involved in activity that is against the law. The link above explains. If it is not true, why are you not suing for defamation for those that are accusing you of defication. You keep bringing up the denial. Dumb.

If it is true, where is the conviction? Where is even the name(s) of the accused? Where is the Post Offfice and their legal charges? Isn't it just as possible that a USAPA supporter did the dirty deed just to instigate legal action?

As for a counter suit, that cannot be legally addressed until after the appeal is also dismissed. One more expensive lawsuit for which the good people of USAPA will be required to foot the bill. Are you starting to understand where this is all going???



79. On or about May 26, 2008, the U.S. Postal Service informed USAPA that
injurious articles, including rocks, have been sent through the mail addressed to
USAPA’s post office box. There were also two instances in April 2008 of envelopes
containing feces being sent through the mail to USAPA’s post office box. Upon
information and belief, such mailings were made with intent to injure other persons, the
mails or other property. The mailing of such nonmailable matter violates 18 U.S.C. §
1716, and subjects the person(s) responsible to fine or imprisonment of not more than twenty years, or both. The U.S. Postal Service has requested USAPA’s assistance in
identifying the responsible parties and putting an end to this unlawful conduct. Upon
information and belief, one or more of the defendants or their co-conspirators are
responsible for this conduct.

 

[tazz]

Just look at the fuel school. That should have been just cause for a one day shutdown, yet, for whatever reason, pilots breezed right past that particularly odious pile of manure. What will it take for the pilot group to uphold their professionalism? or, perhaps, the pilots have none.

Where I come from performing an illegal work action demonstrates a lack of professionalism. But, what do I know? I'm just a rookie from the west.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It is about time.

A former RIDC (management-type) dude told me that each year the management types get together and come up with a list of 100 areas to "interdict" the pilot contract with, knowing full well the (former) MEC can only handle 10 or 15 per cent. RIDC cedes those areas they "lose" on and sweep the other 85+% of interdicted areas onto their side. It depends on an employee group not thinking that management might attack their contract outside Section 6. Works every time. Especially with ALPA.

They deliberately interdict your contract. When confronted, they claim incompetence or laziness. So far, it has worked great. Just look at the fuel school. That should have been just cause for a one day shutdown, yet, for whatever reason, pilots breezed right past that particularly odious pile of manure. What will it take for the pilot group to uphold their professionalism? or, perhaps, the pilots have none.

The company does shutdowns all the time. Just look at Thanksgiving day. Few revenue NA trips. Nearly all NA trips are deadheads. Some nimrod in marketing decided Europe observes Thanksgiving, perhaps because the Tempe morons basically have a regional mentality, like co-Cain.

BTW, next time we have Tempe Tourists complaining about PAs, I will personally be happy to point the other passengers at those idiots. It will be like tossing chum into shark infested waters. Should be interesting. I'll save the dog-tags for Dougie. I promise.

I have always been critical of the way ALPA negotiates contracts because they have no teeth. ALPA always took the company at their word, and the company always goes back on it. I had hoped that USAPA would come up with something different, but alas it appears that we are headed for yet another contract with no teeth.

The abuses will continue because, as you pointed out, there is no downside for the company to continue chipping away at the contract.

There should be punitive damages attached to the any grievance that is decided in favor of the employee. Maybe, for a first offense on any given contract section, a 10x compensation for the actual damages. If the same section is violated again, then a 100x punitive compensation.

If the company was willing to abide by its word, having language like this in the contract should not be a barrier to them. If they balk, it simply means that they have no intention of living up to their contractual obligations.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

As far as a one day SOS over the fuel issue, that is obviously a non-starter as it is so blatantly against federal law. And besides, look at the flack USAPA took for simply taking out that ad in USA Today. Can you imagine the fallout if they had taken illegal actions? The company, the press, the courts and the ever-so-supportive westies would have had a field day.

 

[john john]

I have always been critical of the way ALPA negotiates contracts because they have no teeth. ALPA always took the company at their word, and the company always goes back on it.

For years ALPA negotiated across the table with an ALPA member management pilot
Grievances should have a time limit for management to respond if not the grievance should be awarded

 

[Freighterguynow]

Tiger,

The info to be openly shared is available by clicking on "this flyer".

Best regards,

EJ

No link