lynyrdskynyrd
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US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9
- Thread starter Edward
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des nudo
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AWAPPA
AMERICA WEST AIRLINES PILOTS PROTECTIVE ALLIANCE
“Protecting the interests of America West pilotsâ€
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Who is managing AWAPPA?
Currently, America West pilot volunteers are building AWAPPA’s infrastructure. AWAPPA will be governed and led by an AWAPPA Board of Directors, as defined in the AWAPPA by-laws. AWAPPA Board of Director positions will always be occupied by America West pilots, and the staffing of those positions will be governed by a democratic process defined in the AWAPPA By-Laws. Expect to see more information in the coming weeks.
Should I join or pay dues to USAPA?
AWAPPA will have a recommendation on this important question only in the unlikely event that USAPA is successful in the NMB election. Regardless of that recommendation, we anticipate that it will take some time before AWAPPA is able to solicit membership applications and install a dues billing structure. We strongly recommend that you disregard USAPA’s current efforts to collect membership applications and dues check-off forms.
Regardless of the recommendation for or against joining USAPA, we strongly recommend that America West pilots never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Do I need to cancel my ALPA dues check-off?
There is no need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off. In the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, your current dues check-off agreement is “personal†to ALPA and should not transfer to a new bargaining agent. However, we would not be surprised if USAPA tries to claim that your ALPA dues check-off agreements transfer to it if it wins the election. Another so-called “independent union†that USAPA’s lawyer also represented unsuccessfully attempted a similar circus stunt.
So although your current check-off authorization should not automatically transfer to USAPA if they succeed, we do recommend that you send a clarification letter to payroll. Look for more information in an AWAPPA email update.
In short, you do not need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off now
Never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Can USAPA succeed at imposing date-of-hire on us?
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA’s failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they’re trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA’s assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA’s purported “right†to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let’s review the facts about each of those. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA’s lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA’s lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics’ jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics – The independent union USAPA’s lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant’s union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA’s law firm. In other words, USAPA’s lawyer’s client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without 1800 of the employees they represented actively opposed to the unions on the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA’s leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no “Plan B†if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is “unsupportiveâ€, and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the “majority†2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, USAPA’s rocky foundation is enough to almost virtually guarantee their failure. Your ALPA vote will prevent us from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying a price.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
Although the goals of AWAPPA and Leonidas are similar, our strategies may differ somewhat. Both groups have agreed to coordinate efforts as much as possible to prevent a division of the pilot group. It is not our intent to ask pilots to choose sides. In fact, at this point, all that we ask is that you read our updates and consider our recommendations.
Having stated the ideal goal above, the potential does exist for one litigation effort to negatively influence another. If that becomes the case and we are unable to facilitate a coordinated effort, we will do our best to inform you of that situation.
If USAPA wins the election, and US Airways management subsequently agrees to Date of Hire, is ALPA going to provide resources to AWAPPA to assist in the resulting legal battle?
It is important to understand that we will have the resources and support necessary to succeed in defeating USAPA without any of ALPA’s assistance.
Although ALPA has not committed publicly to support AWAPPA’s efforts, we believe that ALPA will assist us in one form or another. Historically, ALPA has participated in precedent setting legal cases that could affect their ability to represent pilots, and our case definitely meets that standard.
As a reminder, AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
If I read this right, you AWA pilots have a "spin-off" little union-type thing out there instead of joining or paying dues to USAPA who is your NMB recognized legal union on the property? And more interesting is this idea that ALPA is going to join you in your lawsuit against USAPA and USAirways?...
You guys are in for a big surprise, when ALPA left the property, they took their interests and their legal responsibilities with them...they have no role in this , will not help pay for this, and will remain quietly hoping you don't sue them for DFR.
reality check.
PS, the highlighted suggestions against USAPA membership is not only illegal to suggest or do, it will get people fired, and from what I gather in my part of the world, the vote is going nicely on the language changes designed to "help" you in your desire to never be part of USAPA....or USAirways.
Seems you guys are sending mixed messages...no visits or reps, and open unwillingness to join...
which is it, boys?
AMERICA WEST AIRLINES PILOTS PROTECTIVE ALLIANCE
“Protecting the interests of America West pilotsâ€
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Who is managing AWAPPA?
Currently, America West pilot volunteers are building AWAPPA’s infrastructure. AWAPPA will be governed and led by an AWAPPA Board of Directors, as defined in the AWAPPA by-laws. AWAPPA Board of Director positions will always be occupied by America West pilots, and the staffing of those positions will be governed by a democratic process defined in the AWAPPA By-Laws. Expect to see more information in the coming weeks.
Should I join or pay dues to USAPA?
AWAPPA will have a recommendation on this important question only in the unlikely event that USAPA is successful in the NMB election. Regardless of that recommendation, we anticipate that it will take some time before AWAPPA is able to solicit membership applications and install a dues billing structure. We strongly recommend that you disregard USAPA’s current efforts to collect membership applications and dues check-off forms.
Regardless of the recommendation for or against joining USAPA, we strongly recommend that America West pilots never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Do I need to cancel my ALPA dues check-off?
There is no need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off. In the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, your current dues check-off agreement is “personal†to ALPA and should not transfer to a new bargaining agent. However, we would not be surprised if USAPA tries to claim that your ALPA dues check-off agreements transfer to it if it wins the election. Another so-called “independent union†that USAPA’s lawyer also represented unsuccessfully attempted a similar circus stunt.
So although your current check-off authorization should not automatically transfer to USAPA if they succeed, we do recommend that you send a clarification letter to payroll. Look for more information in an AWAPPA email update.
In short, you do not need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off now
Never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Can USAPA succeed at imposing date-of-hire on us?
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA’s failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they’re trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA’s assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA’s purported “right†to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let’s review the facts about each of those. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA’s lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA’s lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics’ jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics – The independent union USAPA’s lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants – USAPA’s lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant’s union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA’s law firm. In other words, USAPA’s lawyer’s client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without 1800 of the employees they represented actively opposed to the unions on the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA’s leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no “Plan B†if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is “unsupportiveâ€, and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the “majority†2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, USAPA’s rocky foundation is enough to almost virtually guarantee their failure. Your ALPA vote will prevent us from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying a price.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
Although the goals of AWAPPA and Leonidas are similar, our strategies may differ somewhat. Both groups have agreed to coordinate efforts as much as possible to prevent a division of the pilot group. It is not our intent to ask pilots to choose sides. In fact, at this point, all that we ask is that you read our updates and consider our recommendations.
Having stated the ideal goal above, the potential does exist for one litigation effort to negatively influence another. If that becomes the case and we are unable to facilitate a coordinated effort, we will do our best to inform you of that situation.
If USAPA wins the election, and US Airways management subsequently agrees to Date of Hire, is ALPA going to provide resources to AWAPPA to assist in the resulting legal battle?
It is important to understand that we will have the resources and support necessary to succeed in defeating USAPA without any of ALPA’s assistance.
Although ALPA has not committed publicly to support AWAPPA’s efforts, we believe that ALPA will assist us in one form or another. Historically, ALPA has participated in precedent setting legal cases that could affect their ability to represent pilots, and our case definitely meets that standard.
As a reminder, AWAPPA will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that any modification of the Nicolau award is agreed to.
If I read this right, you AWA pilots have a "spin-off" little union-type thing out there instead of joining or paying dues to USAPA who is your NMB recognized legal union on the property? And more interesting is this idea that ALPA is going to join you in your lawsuit against USAPA and USAirways?...
You guys are in for a big surprise, when ALPA left the property, they took their interests and their legal responsibilities with them...they have no role in this , will not help pay for this, and will remain quietly hoping you don't sue them for DFR.
reality check.
PS, the highlighted suggestions against USAPA membership is not only illegal to suggest or do, it will get people fired, and from what I gather in my part of the world, the vote is going nicely on the language changes designed to "help" you in your desire to never be part of USAPA....or USAirways.
Seems you guys are sending mixed messages...no visits or reps, and open unwillingness to join...
which is it, boys?
Furlough Fodder
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Again with the stereotyping without fact? Your characterization of a generation that you are not a part of is comical. If you would like some hard facts instead of myth then check this out:
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/po...;accno=ED388801
GorgeousGeorge
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"mongoloid keystone cops"- Well, I have to tell you I take offense to that. I have a so called " mongoloid " brother (term used 35 years ago-probably older than you are) and he one of the finest, honest, sincere, intelligent and social persons I have been honored to know. His personality towers above 3/4 of the posters on these webboards. Why don't you go back to school and learn what "labels" you so easily throw around are. Oh, i'll help you- It's called Downs Syndrome. I've never said this or thought to do this before, but, you sir, are not welcomed in my cockpit. If you think you hit a nerve- you're damn right!!!
des nudo
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So which is it, bloke? What's the "party line" today? Cry about no reps? Or blood oaths to never join the union?
The joining of a union is not a popularity contest...it's not even required. Refusing to pay any dues is not an option, and has terminable consequences.
What many out in the Far West are puzzled by is the bipolar nature of the AWA pilots...on one hand they complain about lack of representation, lack of visits out west, and no reps out west...but my mates and I have all watched the youtube videos of previous visits out west, and we are finding these splinter groups who are acting in union-busting manner highly contradictory with what you are complaining about on the other hand.
We have heard about the jumpseat war by the west...the customized jumpseat forms, the clickers', and the hazing of AWA pilots who join or show interest in being a west rep.
crazy behavior. And your reprehensible insult about mongoloidism is not only shameful on a human level, but embarrasing as well from one supposedly professional pilot.
disgusting.
BoeingBoy
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It is not illegal to decline dues checkoff or membership, at least in this part of the world.
Jim
des nudo
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"We strongly recommend that you disregard USAPA’s current efforts to collect membership applications..."
Union-busting 101 mate...interfering with a legal unions business is illegal..even the employer is restrained from it. And I already know how badly you like to be right mate, I see you all over all the topics here, so Im not going to argue with you...it's wrong, you know it...you'd say differently if we were talking about ALPA...this is just a bunch of pilots acting like mary's about all this...
cheers
Metro, In all honesty, under USAPA cbl's in order to be a domicile rep you have to be an active member, also can only be a dom. rep if you are from that domicile. So just exactly how do you propose local representation if the first two requirements are not met. Suggestion, why don't you step up and be the west rep. If you choose not to, so be it, your right, then don't moan about not having local representation for 7 months. I read Sue's full letter to AL Hemingway on why she shouldn't be let go for non payment, guess what she was right, however I feel you are now asking usapa to violate their own cbl's by simply appointing a rep from another base so you can have local representation. I don't feel you can have it both ways, it's sounds like the kid who complains about never playing, but never goes to practice. Come to practice so you can play in the game.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
It's not for lack of trying.
There are PHX and PAS pilots who would like to step up and represent you, but they are intimidated by the threats of physical and psychological assault by your colleauges.
If you want representation and your dues are up to date, then step forward and take on the job. Or, are you too afraid of your own kind and their threats?
So, what I'm basically saying is: "Step up, or shut up."
BoeingBoy
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Interfering, yes...recommending, no. And perhaps you're confusing this with interference with the union's organizing drive.
And for the record it doesn't matter what the name of the union is.
Jim
des nudo
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I wouldn't know about recent applications or their status, I said the quoted behavior is easily actionable as illegal....you change the subject. And being a retired ALPA shill, I know you have all day and night to argue, I have a life away from this forum, but I'll be watching.
cheers
Jim, very true and I don't think usapa can just appoint someone w/o their consent, so aren't we back where we started.
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