US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9

[Megasnoop]

This will be over one way or another in 16 months when USAPA has proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it cannot deliver on one single promise. 16 more months of LOA 93, no chance of a contract, more lawsuits, and the wasting of millions of member dollars to pay Seham.

16 months left? Then what? alpo back? Another 2 years of negotiations? By who? alpo? I doubt it. With $10M in dues on the line, every union out there will be trolling for that prize. If usapa does nothing else, defending against the NIC for 3+ years was worth paying dues. 3 years, because without the threat of de-cert, ALPO would have implemented NIC with a cram-down contract. Even if usapa gets the boot, the same pilots who voted to get rid of alpo will still have the majority. You think were going to give alpo another chance to "nic" us? if USAPAs gone, it wont be alpo.

USAPAs also spending YOUR dues/agency fee defending itself. Not paying? Lets see what happens after the susie loophole closes.

A merger can happen any day as well. Either way the death knell for USAPA is ringing.

For pilots, 16 months is an eternity. Merger? Read the latest TWA-inspired seniority Federal Law for seniority integration. Allegheny-Mohawk. I wonder when alpo merger policy is changed to conform. snooper

 

[CactusFlyr]

Glad to see you easties are still wasting your time, and money, lol.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Of course, one of the problems in bringing a judge into the equation is that they're often clueless when it comes to the seemingly arcane world of airline/employee contracts.

This one doesn't appear to be. At one point during Seham's closing, Judge Wake reminded Seham that it was only after the publication of Nicolau did the East begin the uSapa effort. Seham responded (and this is paraphrased) that he has been doing labor law for quite a while and that in his experience, pilots are not up to speed on a union's merger policy. The judge flat out told Seham that he disagreed and that it was the court's opinion that airline employees are always well versed in seniority matters, especially pilots. Again, that's paraphrased but the gist is accurate. One little tidbit that further undermines Seham's claim as it relates to his clients is that the East has been through...how many mergers over the past two decades? Four was it? If there is ANY pilot group that should be well versed in seniority mergers, it's Seham's clients! Nice try, Lee!

 

[luvn737s]

The only thing is, you have to suffer some kind of damage before you can prevail, and to date no one has since there isn't even a combined contract. There may be a DFR later, but I don't see how they can prevail now, with essentially no damages and since they refuse to even be a part of the legal CBA.

USAPA has an equal duty to represent Non-Members in good standing of which there are more than a few on the west. By shirking it's responsibility to defend the seniority award they inherited, they have allowed west pilots to be impacted by furloughs that they otherwise would not have if USAPA had negotiated a joint contract in good faith. They have chosen to ignore the rights of Non Members in good standing and fail to appoint representitves who would carry out the duties these Non-Members have paid good money for.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[luvn737s]

Aquagreen-
Could you go over again that part about money damages? I like the sound of that. Do you think the company could be in line to receive money damages as well? Do you suppose they will use those as leverage at the bargaining table?

 

[BoeingBoy]

This one doesn't appear to be.

I was thinking more of the narrow issue of furloughs out of order as it pertains to the three separate lists mandated by the TA and the dependence on the underlying contract, but sounds like this judge may have more experience in the area of labor contracts than some.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

Aquagreen-
Could you go over again that part about money damages? I like the sound of that. Do you think the company could be in line to receive money damages as well? Do you suppose they will use those as leverage at the bargaining table?

Was that a typo regarding the company being in line to "receive" damages? If not a typo, damages from whom?

 

[aquagreen73s]

I was thinking more of the narrow issue of furloughs out of order as it pertains to the three separate lists mandated by the TA and the dependence on the underlying contract, but sounds like this judge may have more experience in the area of labor contracts than some.

Jim

I didn't get the impression that he has experience as much as it is his intelligence. Maybe HP/FA can add his observations about Judge Wake, but it's apparent to anyone that he is a brilliant man. There is no question he understood the issues and his questions to all the attorneys was something to behold. He was like an Annie Oakley with words in that he cut silhouettes around every argument each attorney made. What really blew me away was when he was questioning Seham over the Air Wisconsin case and without even looking at his computer screen, the judge started firing off detailed parts of the dicta from that case. It's like he has a photographic memory or something. This is not your ordinary judge.

 

[hp_fa]

Aquagreen, you observations are in line with my recollections of him prior to taking his seat on the bench. Also, he doesn't seem to have much of an ideology bias other than for what he perceives to be the law and applicable precedent. Let's put it this way, I won't have much sympathy for any arguments that the judge did not listen and appreciate what was being argued by each side.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This one doesn't appear to be. At one point during Seham's closing, Judge Wake reminded Seham that it was only after the publication of Nicolau did the East begin the uSapa effort.

Not true. And this is easily provable. It might not have been named USAPA at that point, but the movement predated Nicolau by at least 6 months, if not years. The first URL used by USAPA (www.decertifyalpa.org) was created and reserved just for this purpose in November, 2004. That is easily documented. USAPA was also created out of a synthesis of several efforts already in process, some of which had been incorporated long before May, 2005. This is also easily documented. If the judge is using this as a basis for making his judgment, he is setting himself up for being overturned by the appeals court. Unlike Nicolau, a federal judge doesn't have the luxury of using flawed data to reach a conclusion and then let it slide by claiming ultimate authority.

 

[nic4us]

Not true. And this is easily provable. It might not have been named USAPA at that point, but the movement predated Nicolau by at least 6 months, if not years. The first URL used by USAPA (www.decertifyalpa.org) was created and reserved just for this purpose in November, 2004. That is easily documented. USAPA was also created out of a synthesis of several efforts already in process, some of which had been incorporated long before May, 2005. This is also easily documented. If the judge is using this as a basis for making his judgment, he is setting himself up for being overturned by the appeals court. Unlike Nicolau, a federal judge doesn't have the luxury of using flawed data to reach a conclusion and then let it slide by claiming ultimate authority.

busdriver

The judges statement that it was after the publication of the Nic decision, is also easily provable by USAPA's own addmission that thay were started in the back of a van on the way home from the march on Herndon post Nic. Copies of such statements are easily obtainable along with copies of statements about overturning the Nic being their primary purpose, buying West seniority with a cost nuetral contracct, and other illegal practices. Where you might ask are such copies available? On archives of the very web address you mention. Oops, If you are going to break the law, you should not tell the world first, lesson for USAPA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

busdriver

The judges statement that it was after the publication of the Nic decision, is also easily provable by USAPA's own addmission that thay were started in the back of a van on the way home from the march on Herndon post Nic. Copies of such statements are easily obtainable along with copies of statements about overturning the Nic being their primary purpose, buying West seniority with a cost nuetral contracct, and other illegal practices. Where you might ask are such copies available? On archives of the very web address you mention. Oops, If you are going to break the law, you should not tell the world first, lesson for USAPA.

You are mistating facts again, but I'm not going to correct you FOR THE UMPTEETH TIME.

Won't matter. It's all gonna get thrown out. If not now, then on appeal. The Nic was only ONE reason to get rid of ALPA. And, by the way, it wasn't the Nic itself that was the reason, it was the lack of a real, workable merger policy that did them in.

 

[PA18]

In the meantime there will be retirements on the East as not everyone will wait till 65, there will be upward movement as people transition to larger aircraft and reserve to block holder an so on.

But not in the immediate future, it would appear.

Another East "shrink-to-profitability", "go backwards" permanent base bid was just published for February. Fewer lines, fewer pilots...

If the operations remain separate, and the East keeps publishing permanent base bids like the ones over the past several years, the East will eventually disappear altogether, and the West's problem will be solved.

 

[nic4us]

You are mistating facts again, but I'm not going to correct you FOR THE UMPTEETH TIME.

Won't matter. It's all gonna get thrown out. If not now, then on appeal. The Nic was only ONE reason to get rid of ALPA. And, by the way, it wasn't the Nic itself that was the reason, it was the lack of a real, workable merger policy that did them in.

I may be slightly mistating, but as you point out they are facts. Facts with video evidence to back them up. Prior to the NMB vote USAPA proposed a method in which they could offer a cost nuetral contract as a strategy to throw out the Nic.(i.e. they made a campaign promise and ran on a primary platform of overthrowing the Nic)

If it is not thrown out now there may be no appeal. Unless the company decides to do so. remember they are enjoined with USAPA in this case. Kind of a strange bedfellows thing dont you think.

ALPA's merger policy is more workable than USAPA's, especially considering the new law. I believe what you meant to say was it was the West unwillingness to role over and see it your way that did ALPA in. Or perhaps you are further supporting my argument by saying ALPA was doomed because it was your way or the highway for ALPA and the West, Nic be damned, again by your own admittence the primary reason for USAPA's existance, overthrowing the Nic.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

But not in the immediate future, it would appear.

Another East "shrink-to-profitability", "go backwards" permanent base bid was just published for February. Fewer lines, fewer pilots...

If the operations remain separate, and the East keeps publishing permanent base bids like the ones over the past several years, the East will eventually disappear altogether, and the West's problem will be solved.

We haven't even seen what's going to happen to the west yet. And from the bid I'm looking at, looks pretty much like status quo on the east, just some movement between domicles. The reductions are folks already gone for one reason or another (the 5 furloughed folks are already scheduled, I believe).

I think that all the airlines have committed to reducing capacity, but maybe the reduction of oil prices will help change that some. It will depend on just how much the economic downturn effects demand.

The only thing that will improve the trend AT ALL AIRLINES will be an improved economy.