nycbusdriver
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Hey, I didn't write the Railway Labor Act.
Write your congressman if you want it amended to make allowance for whining.
US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9
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Hey, I didn't write the Railway Labor Act.
Write your congressman if you want it amended to make allowance for whining.
Metroyet
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At this point, USAPA hiding behind the RLA is like a Hippo hiding behind a mushroom. Leonidas and their attorneys have drawn the bead of contract law between the eyes of USAPA and their beloved master, and I'm convinced Judge Wake clearly sees what USAPA is really all about.
Whining?
"Pot?, Meet Kettle...we're gonna need a CIRP team"
Metroyet
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Also,
Negotiating Advisory Committee Update
November 8, 2008
Fellow Pilots,
The Negotiating Advisory Committee (NAC) was looking forward to this week’s negotiating session since it was prepared to receive Section 11 Training, Section 25 Scheduling, Section 27 Insurance and Section 28 Retirement. This week was viewed by the Committee as an indication of where negotiations may be headed. To say we are extremely disappointed is an understatement. We want our Pilots to get this message loud and clear - Management is not even close to meeting our expectations and as much as we say that they failed miserably, we are afraid that they consider that fact to be their success.
We do not pass this message to you lightly or emotionally; it’s business. What has us concerned is not just what Management is passing to us on the table, which we will discuss later, but the negotiating tactics that they are employing. Let us be perfectly clear to you and explain.
* When Management raises concerns on proposals, we take them seriously. We listen and try to understand their issues and work hard to try to find solutions to those issues. A win/win solution is always in both parties' best interest.
* When the Pilots raise concerns on proposals, Management just says "NO". For the most part, they’re not attempting to come up with solutions; they go directly to their fall-back solution, "NO".
If we continue down this path, the end result is that the Pilots literally end up negotiating with themselves; returning to the table each time moving further away from the Pilots’ needs. Sound familiar? This has been a successful negotiating tactic used by past and present management teams and we are determined not to travel down that path.
As if Management’s negotiating tactics weren’t bad enough, this week we sat at the table and received some hideous solutions to Pilot issues. Here are some classic examples:
In Section 27 Insurance, we discussed Disability. Now follow this: If you purchase and pay for a Loss of License Insurance policy independent from the Company, and you have a medical issue that leads to the loss of your license and use of Long Term Disability (LTD) insurance, Management proposes to reduce your LTD benefit by the amount of your private insurance. That’s equivalent to putting your own money towards an investment and if you received a profit or dividends from that investment, Management unilaterally would reduce their payment to you by the same amount!
There are other concessions Management wants involving LTD insurance payouts. Management proposes that if a LTD Pilot qualified for government assistance for him/herself, spouse and children, Management wants to reduce the Pilot's LTD payment by that same amount - not only by his/her own government assistance, but also that of his/her spouse and kids. An immoral concession by anyone’s standard.
In addition, Management wants to end medical insurance to a disabled Pilot after four years and kick them off the seniority list after eight. All of these items are repulsive and concessions from our bankruptcy contract.
Let’s move on to Section 28 Retirement. Management has not come close to other airlines’ retirement benefits. The Association’s position regarding DC contributions is 15% for the first year and 17% the second year. Management’s proposal is to not to move off the bankruptcy rate of 10%. The Association’s position is reasonable and in-line with other major airlines:
* Delta negotiated 14% plus $800M (approx) from their defined benefit plan.
* UAL is at 16% plus a large claim on their terminated defined benefit plan.
* NWA (prior to merger) - maintained their defined benefit plan (frozen) and in addition, added a 14% contribution (post merger).
Although we received some movement in Section 11 Training, Management refuses to address the Pilot’s concerns in Section 25 Scheduling.
* They propose no predictability
* They propose commuter type work rules and scheduler-controlled reserve (trips assigned at scheduluer perogotive)
* A Preferential Bidding System (PBS) – The NAC wants the Pilots to have input and some control over the parameters which will operate PBS. This language is in the East Pilot contract under LOA 84. Management wants the concession of complete control over the PBS system and responded that if we had an issue with the operation of PBS, a Pilot can “File a Grievance!†That’s comforting!
The bottom line here is that the NAC is disappointed because in most cases, Management cannot seem to find any solutions other than "NO". Management’s behavior at the negotiating table reflects exactly the “value†they place on the job that our Pilots perform andyour Negotiating Advisory Committee takes issue with their assessment of our Pilots’ value. As we have proved before, our Pilots are in control of their own destiny.
"It’s not what Management says, it’s what they do", and they’re not doing much at the table!
airlinepilots.org
Or send to NAC@USAirlinePilots.org to reach the whole committee
A "union" without "unity" is like a body without blood. The company knows this beyond a shadow of a doubt. The East forcibly made the collective bed...now we all get to lay in it. At least we're not on LOA 93.
Negotiating Advisory Committee Update
November 8, 2008
Fellow Pilots,
The Negotiating Advisory Committee (NAC) was looking forward to this week’s negotiating session since it was prepared to receive Section 11 Training, Section 25 Scheduling, Section 27 Insurance and Section 28 Retirement. This week was viewed by the Committee as an indication of where negotiations may be headed. To say we are extremely disappointed is an understatement. We want our Pilots to get this message loud and clear - Management is not even close to meeting our expectations and as much as we say that they failed miserably, we are afraid that they consider that fact to be their success.
We do not pass this message to you lightly or emotionally; it’s business. What has us concerned is not just what Management is passing to us on the table, which we will discuss later, but the negotiating tactics that they are employing. Let us be perfectly clear to you and explain.
* When Management raises concerns on proposals, we take them seriously. We listen and try to understand their issues and work hard to try to find solutions to those issues. A win/win solution is always in both parties' best interest.
* When the Pilots raise concerns on proposals, Management just says "NO". For the most part, they’re not attempting to come up with solutions; they go directly to their fall-back solution, "NO".
If we continue down this path, the end result is that the Pilots literally end up negotiating with themselves; returning to the table each time moving further away from the Pilots’ needs. Sound familiar? This has been a successful negotiating tactic used by past and present management teams and we are determined not to travel down that path.
As if Management’s negotiating tactics weren’t bad enough, this week we sat at the table and received some hideous solutions to Pilot issues. Here are some classic examples:
In Section 27 Insurance, we discussed Disability. Now follow this: If you purchase and pay for a Loss of License Insurance policy independent from the Company, and you have a medical issue that leads to the loss of your license and use of Long Term Disability (LTD) insurance, Management proposes to reduce your LTD benefit by the amount of your private insurance. That’s equivalent to putting your own money towards an investment and if you received a profit or dividends from that investment, Management unilaterally would reduce their payment to you by the same amount!
There are other concessions Management wants involving LTD insurance payouts. Management proposes that if a LTD Pilot qualified for government assistance for him/herself, spouse and children, Management wants to reduce the Pilot's LTD payment by that same amount - not only by his/her own government assistance, but also that of his/her spouse and kids. An immoral concession by anyone’s standard.
In addition, Management wants to end medical insurance to a disabled Pilot after four years and kick them off the seniority list after eight. All of these items are repulsive and concessions from our bankruptcy contract.
Let’s move on to Section 28 Retirement. Management has not come close to other airlines’ retirement benefits. The Association’s position regarding DC contributions is 15% for the first year and 17% the second year. Management’s proposal is to not to move off the bankruptcy rate of 10%. The Association’s position is reasonable and in-line with other major airlines:
* Delta negotiated 14% plus $800M (approx) from their defined benefit plan.
* UAL is at 16% plus a large claim on their terminated defined benefit plan.
* NWA (prior to merger) - maintained their defined benefit plan (frozen) and in addition, added a 14% contribution (post merger).
Although we received some movement in Section 11 Training, Management refuses to address the Pilot’s concerns in Section 25 Scheduling.
* They propose no predictability
* They propose commuter type work rules and scheduler-controlled reserve (trips assigned at scheduluer perogotive)
* A Preferential Bidding System (PBS) – The NAC wants the Pilots to have input and some control over the parameters which will operate PBS. This language is in the East Pilot contract under LOA 84. Management wants the concession of complete control over the PBS system and responded that if we had an issue with the operation of PBS, a Pilot can “File a Grievance!†That’s comforting!
The bottom line here is that the NAC is disappointed because in most cases, Management cannot seem to find any solutions other than "NO". Management’s behavior at the negotiating table reflects exactly the “value†they place on the job that our Pilots perform andyour Negotiating Advisory Committee takes issue with their assessment of our Pilots’ value. As we have proved before, our Pilots are in control of their own destiny.
"It’s not what Management says, it’s what they do", and they’re not doing much at the table!
airlinepilots.org
Or send to NAC@USAirlinePilots.org to reach the whole committee
A "union" without "unity" is like a body without blood. The company knows this beyond a shadow of a doubt. The East forcibly made the collective bed...now we all get to lay in it. At least we're not on LOA 93.
Phoenix
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Posting phone numbers and emails from a password protected site is uncalled for. You can get your point across without subjecting people to e-mail spam bots.
Metroyet
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Fixed. Didn't even notice it. However, it does beg the question...If the "union/members" reps are so proud of what they are doing, why should their names/email/and phone numbers be shielded from view?
Rhetorical Question.
Maybe they can hire some off duty armed guards like they have to do when they come to PHX (that one time)...you'll recall PHX is the largest base right?
Metro.
nostradamus
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Megasnoop
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Cool your jets, Metro. Negotiating outside of Section 6 is like shadow boxing. You punch away but never land a blow. The company knows the time table. We cant get into Section 6 for another 13 months at the earliest. Not sure when the West contract goes amendable. No doubt the company can draw this out. They have zero incentive at the table. Dont read too much into the companys tactics regarding unity. They company knows the East controls the vote. ALPO would be in the same position.
Keep this is mind, Metro, USAPA is being up front and honest about lack of progress. Their not doing the ALPO secrecy thing. snuper
Megasnoop
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It begs no question at all, Metro, other than in your jaded mind looking for a cheap shot. But heres your rhetorical answer: any usapa member or non-member has access to the NAC release and phone numbers by going to the USAPA web site. USAPA is still using the same generic ID and p/w that it announced last April. You, as a non-member, obviously had access. Can you ever imagine ALPO allowing that kind of access to non-members? One thing USAPA doesnt do is play the ALPO secrets game. We put it all out on the table.
But this is a completely public forum. Phoenix was right in calling you on it. Your smug reply was so typical. snuper
nostradamus
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Provide proof of your allegations please, sir. Maybe we could investigate your history of posts vs oldie and see what we come up with. Now I have my homework assignment for tonight.
nostradamus
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mongoloid, please explain sir how you feel this is a word, you feel should insult the east group and USAPA.
Metroyet
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The West was well into Sec. 6 negotiations until your band of DOH thugs tricked the system and totally disenfranchised them. The monetary cost alone of this failed experiment will probably never be known. It's safe to say that the monetary loss will be greatest on the East since you gave away your pay rates, work rules, retirement, health benefits, et. al. to "save" a corpse of an airline (again, and again, and again)
From here on out, the East controls nothing. The Court system does. Not the feeble band of mini dictators that have granted themselves rights of supremacy.
The only thing USAPA has been "up front and honest" about is their hell bent intention to totally disenfranchise the West and making a DFR case as easy as possible. Again, USAPA is doomed to fail. Name one other labor organization that has survived when 40% of the potential members are withholding no effort to kill them off one way or another. A union with no unity is a body without blood. Dead.
Metroyet
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Ignore that word, a bad choice on my part. However, the sentiment is still crystal clear. Re-read the RICO suit and tell me it's not an episode of the keystone cops slap-sticking through the court system.
traderjake
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How many pilots has USAPA forced the company to fire so far?
Zero.
When USAPA bags it's first pilot I'll consider taking what you say seriously.
Megasnoop
Veteran
Slow down, Metro. Truth serum time. You were NOT in Section 6 negotiations. You COULD have been in June 2006, but your own MEC decided to go with ALPO and JNC. But if you make up a story and tell it enough times without being called on it, someone will always get sucked in.
You guys disenfranchise yourselves by refusing to be part of the process. You intimidate anyone who even wants to represent you. Name one other labor organization in which 40% of the potential members have failed to participate. AT USAPA, union MEMBERS are unified and the company knows west non-members wont get to vote.
Now back to my Yingling. PSU lost by a point. There goes the BCS championship game. snuper
BoeingBoy
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IIRC, West was in the early stages of Section 6 when the merger came along, and negotiations were halted to concentrate on a single contract. They also gave notice under the TA in late 2007/early 2008 that they wanted to resume Section 6 but the company put that off. Then USAPA became the CBA and the thought of West Section 6 disappeared.
Jim
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