US pilot labor thread 6/28-7/4

[ableoneable]

This board looks much better after a glass of good single malt scotch whiskey.

I advise all to partake.

First round on me.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (captain tom @ Jul 3 2008, 06:55 PM)
Hey, I'm a long time watcher of these boards. I'm a pilot at DAL, and majored in labor relations in college. I've had a lot of classes in arbitration and mediation, mostly taught by guys who were actually arbitrators and mediators. I've been watching your situation because my understanding of binding arbitration is that it is, in fact, binding.

Your MEC, I'm assuming, signed an agreement to be bound by the arbitrator's decision. USAPA inherited that deal from ALPA, and is still bound by it. While it's possible that anything can be set aside by a judge, I'm curious as to what argument your counsel will use.

I've been watching your situation not because I enjoy watching a train wreck, but because this situation has some relevance and lessons to be learned. Thanks in advance for your reply.



That's interesting, especially since the lawyers for BOTH sides said that seniority is ALWAYS subject to negotiation. By your own ackowledgement you work for ALPA, and we know what their position is. Your position has been stated over and over again on this board, and it's ALWAYS been discredited. What USAPA inherited was two contracts and two TAs, none of which included the Nic award. If it had been included in a joint contract, it WOULD be binding.

That's interesting, especially since the lawyers for BOTH sides said that seniority is ALWAYS subject to negotiation. By your own ackowledgement you work for ALPA, and we know what their position is. Your position has been stated over and over again on this board, and it's ALWAYS been discredited. What USAPA inherited was two contracts and two TAs, none of which included the Nic award. If it had been included in a joint contract, it WOULD be binding.

While ALPA was likely bound to the arbitrator's decision, I doubt that USAPA is. We'll see, won't we?

Captain Tom, the Oldie is right. Anything binding was between the two parties involved, East and West MECs. When they ceased to exist, so did any compulsory reason by the new CBA, USAPA, to use it. $2 Million down the drain.

In fact, the company had no obligation to accept the list to begin with. That's not from USAPA. That's according to the East and West lawyers who fought our MEC's stupid lawsuit last summer. So, you've got two lawyers representing two opposing sides saying the same thing. Since your into that stuff, for a good labor relations lesson, you need to read through that lawsuit. It was so dumb. But our MEC was fighting the battle to save the mother ship, even back then. They knew they had to do something to keep the troops from mutiny. It didn't work, but it gave ALPO a little breathing room.

 

[elixir]

Nostra (and Check6), a lot of bull, but not much beef coming out of the West. All I can say is let them sue. USAPA didn't cause the furloughs. Without West's help, we don't know what the intent is in the West contract to reduce furloughs. As I said before, we could probably come up with a plan to minimze furloughs, but USAPA can't do it alone.

I can't wait for that mother of all NIC DFR lawsuits. The West has one really big problem. It's there own attorney. Elixer, Luvn, clear and all the rest of the west hatchet men never read what Freund told the court in his reply to the East MEC Vs West MEC lawsuit. Freund said the company wasn't required to accept the NIC.

I may be a "newbie," but I've been lurking for 3 years. you Westies are so hung up on your anger over your NIC lottery ticket not being punched, your missing an opportunity to avoid furloughs.

Snoop

Uh....for the record, I'm an EAST pilot.
But thanks for the airtime. I'm concerned that I've been unclear in my postings, since you weren't clear on that.

 

[captain tom]

So let me see if I've got this right. The argument that will be used to invalidate the Nic award is that USAPA does not inherit the agreement signed by USAir's MEC. In reality, though, the validity of the award will never get tested in court, because it requires a joint contract first, and the joint contract is expected to contain DOH seniority language, which will supercede the Nic award. Correct?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So let me see if I've got this right. The argument that will be used to invalidate the Nic award is that USAPA does not inherit the agreement signed by USAir's MEC. In reality, though, the validity of the award will never get tested in court, because it requires a joint contract first, and the joint contract is expected to contain DOH seniority language, which will supercede the Nic award. Correct?

YOU GOT IT!

Actually, USAPA did inherit the present, separate contracts and the Transition Agreements. The new "joint" contract is still being negotiated.

 

[captain tom]

Is there an expected time frame for the joint contract?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Listen to Parkers last crew news from CTL. He says that the Nicolau is still in place.

What does that mean? "Still in place?"

It's "in place" in his desk drawer. It still "exists." But "still in place" in his desk drawer means only steps away from the shredder.

If Parker considered it "in effect" in any way, all of the upcoming furloughs would be from the east side. We all see how that is working out, so the fact that Parker says that Nicolau is "still in place" means nothing for the real world operation. And it will continue to mean nothing for US Airways.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Is there an expected time frame for the joint contract?

At this point, I believe you need to ask the company that question. USAPA is privvy to all the historic data from the ALPA negotiations, and the former chair of the east ALPA NC (who is undoubtedly one of the finest, honest pilot advocates on the planet) is a USAPA consultant on the current contract negotiations.

I think USAPA has clear intentions on where they want the contract to go, but if there are any obstacles thrown in the way, it will likely be by the company. Of course, in a sense the company is backed into a corner with this negotiation because Parker is hot to get this airline sold/merged off, and it is blatantly obvious that there will be no takers until this matter is settled. Parker's intransigence in the negotiations previous to the Nicolau award is a huge reason that he has found himself in a deep pile of doo-doo. Had he moved to get the contract completed BEFORE Nicolau, this entire scenario would be completely different. Nicolau would have been implemented at the time the FAA certificates were combined, and about (my guess) 30-40% of the east F/O's would have resigned and moved on to other carriers or careers. It would not have been pretty; but it would have been settled. And USAPA would not exist.

 

[captain tom]

Is USAPA in contract negotiations with the company now, or are they still getting their bearings after the election? Have they T/Aed any sections of the contract yet?

 

[luvthe9]

I heard the new senoirity list (with restrictions) has been finished and looked over by the companys legal department and goes to Parker in a week or so, apparently he wants to get things moving along, should be interesting.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

What does that mean? "Still in place?"

It's "in place" in his desk drawer. It still "exists." But "still in place" in his desk drawer means only steps away from the shredder.

If Parker considered it "in effect" in any way, all of the upcoming furloughs would be from the east side. We all see how that is working out, so the fact that Parker says that Nicolau is "still in place" means nothing for the real world operation. And it will continue to mean nothing for US Airways.

This is mostly true - the Nic does exist. It is dormant at present. But it is not going away. Parker has accepted it, usapa has inherited it. It cannot be voided simply because Stevie B and his merry band want it to evaporate. Furthermore both parties are bound by the transition agreement, which keeps both contracts seperate and in force until a joint contract is put into place.

At some point in the negotiations, the Nic award will have to be addressed. This is the big, ugly fact that usapa cannot bear to share with its minions. The ticking time bomb. Even usap land shark Seeham says it will need to be addressed.

Regardless of whatever rash statements are posted here, these are the harsh realities for the east. Another harsh reality is LOA 93, which keeps the east pay at or near the bottom of the industry. Just how long will the east be able to hold out? You can likely expect at least 3 more years at this level. You see, even though the east has the advantage of numbers, the current TA provides for west approval of any joint contract - our 1800 votes carry equal weight as the east votes.

One thing nice about the west contract is our annual vacation allotment - 31 days, if you've been here a while.

I know all you eastie antagonists are going to miss NLC, but I'm now going to take about 17 of my 31. And I've parlayed those 17 vacation days into 35 days off. Y'all have fun dodging the thunderboomers while I'm gone.

The Nic may still be around, but I'm outta here........argue amongst yourselves.

Oh, and happy Independence Day!!


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[luvthe9]

I know all you eastie antagonists are going to miss NLC, but I'm now going to take about 17 of my 31. And I've parlayed those 17 vacation days into 35 days off. Y'all have fun dodging the thunderboomers while I'm gone.

The Nic may still be around, but I'm outta here........argue amongst yourselves.

Oh, and happy Independence Day!!


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Have a great time enjoy all that time off!!!! I turned my lousy 7 days to 2 weeks ( I do anticipate an illness coming on) we use to get 44 in the good old days.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Is USAPA in contract negotiations with the company now, or are they still getting their bearings after the election? Have they T/Aed any sections of the contract yet?

They are in negotiations. They had their first session with the company a week or two ago, and the next meeting is on July 14.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (captain tom @ Jul 4 2008, 09:01 AM)
So let me see if I've got this right. The argument that will be used to invalidate the Nic award is that USAPA does not inherit the agreement signed by USAir's MEC. In reality, though, the validity of the award will never get tested in court, because it requires a joint contract first, and the joint contract is expected to contain DOH seniority language, which will supercede the Nic award. Correct?


YOU GOT IT!

Actually, USAPA did inherit the present, separate contracts and the Transition Agreements. The new "joint" contract is still being negotiated.

Oldie, Capt Tom is getting close. USAPA doesn't have to make any argument to invalidate the NIC. It required a single contract first and that never happened. It's been dead since ALPA left. I don't think the new contract will even mention NIC. The West MEC had a chance to get a better deal than DOH when ALPO was still on property, but they talked themselves into living and dying on NIC. Now they're getting DOH, but with fences that protect them as much as us.

You're right on the rest. This isn't going to make much difference to me. I'm not going to move to PHX and give up this intern'l gig. Even if I wanted, the fences I'm hearing USAPA talk about will keep me out of PHX. It's years before a East pilot can exercise seniority in PHX. Once retirements start again, it'll only take about four years for the West pilots to have a majority. They won't change the list, but they could trash the fences. Then they can fly all the Internat'l flights they want. I'll probably be pulling gear for them.

One more thing. two separate votes is ALPO policy, not TA. And like the NIC, ALPO policy is now gone. All this vote stuff died when ALPO died. Snoop

(now off to Penn's Landing. I can't believe the kids talked me into this. Nothing worse than PHL traffic on the 4th)

 

[Megasnoop]

Uh....for the record, I'm an EAST pilot.
But thanks for the airtime. I'm concerned that I've been unclear in my postings, since you weren't clear on that.

My bad, Yacht-guy. I mixed you up with ableone after I stole his single malt Scotch and his seniority number.