US Pilots' Labor Discussion 11/17-11/30..ALL Pilot Labor Issues Discussed HERE

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Same as you.

He's still having trouble coming to grips with the fact that we've been through that already.

 

[BLT]

What an uninformed statement that if agents made less there would be less kiosks and more agents. Do you live under a rock?

Well under this rock when employee costs go up employers seek ways to either reduce the number of employees or increase their productivity. I believe the use of kiosks has achieved both of these objectives. Would the company have done this anyway? Yes, but probably with more urgency as costs rise. Can a union do anything to stop it. No.

 

[BLT]

They could all be making PEOPLExpress and express pay
You know like hp use to

Is this an argument, or an attempt at insulting HP pilots? You may want to look at the current east pay before you bark up this tree. When you see how bad it is, you can then go thank your union. Or not, considering they really had no meaningful impact on the outcome. You were going to be screwed with or without representation. It just depends on whether or not you want to pay for it. You know. Add insult to your injury. I don't think pilot wages or work rules at HP have ever been as bad as the current east situation.

 

[john john]

Is this an argument, or an attempt at insulting HP pilots? You may want to look at the current east pay before you bark up this tree. When you see how bad it is, you can then go thank your union. Or not, considering they really had no meaningful impact on the outcome. You were going to be screwed with or without representation. It just depends on whether or not you want to pay for it. You know. Add insult to your injury. I don't think pilot wages or work rules at HP have ever been as bad as the current east situation.

Here is a history lesson for you on hard realities of bankruptcy and solidarity and hard work of a bargaining team
IN NOVEMBER 2004 The CWA national executive board voted unanimously to authorize strike action by 6,000 passenger service agents against US Airways, clearing the way for CWA's president to set a strike date.
The passenger service agents voted by 86 percent to authorize a strike against the airline in a membership referendum.
Meanwhile, CWA negotiators continue to meet with US Airways management in an attempt to reach a new labor settlement.
IN JULY 2004 Management demanded devastating pay and benefits concessions from the agents and petitioned the bankruptcy judge to throw out the union contract.
The extreme part of management’s demand was that, even after US Airways employees have our pay and benefits cut to America West Pay top rate of $13.10 per hour
Management proposal was to offer a substandard buyout package and those who refuse the buyout and remain on the job would be reduced to the America West level in pay, vacation, sick benefits, and retirement.
Those recalled from furlough would come back at the starting HP rate.
Those on the job would be reduced to the America West pay scale (top rate of $13.10 per hour
Back by a strong and widespread strike vote CWA was able to push back some of harsh and extreme proposals in particular the demand that the agents drop down to America west pay levels. There is no question management would have if the agents at USAIRWAYS did not have UNION solidarity
IN DECEMBER 2004 the agents voted on a tentative agreement

 

[Reed Richards]

Yet there were few complaints on the US side. Abandoning the "Gold Standard" didn't lead to marches in Herndon, kicking ALPA off the property, or anything else. Most US pilots seems pretty content ignoring that "Gold" in them there hills. Maybe, just maybe because the "Gold Standard" is only the rallying cry when it benefits the US pilots and forgotten when it doesn't...a sort of situational standard.

Jim

And there were also no complaints by a very well off pilot group (at the time) when PI did not give Empire DOH with fences and restrictions. That was not my battle and I was on neither property for the discussion, so I have no idea of the thought processes going on. All I really know is under the USAPA CBA it would have gone down differently. As would have the Shuttle.

Your point on this pilot group not taking action (s) sooner is well taken, but they finally did. USAPA cannot "undo" the Shuttle integration, nor the Empire one..but we can going forward make sure the same thing does not happen again.

Go ahead and keep making fun of "gold standard." That phrase will either stick very soon, or forever be the laughing stock of a few thousand West pilots and apparently you. But DOH has indeed been a standard in this country for labor integrations for a long time. We might have an exception here, but I don't think so.

I have heard for years we need a national seniority list in this country. Had we started one 20 years ago as a fresh list using new hires, we would only now start to see it happen, as enough new guys came on the list to make it effective. Same with the intent of USAPA's Constitution. Neither of us will see a true DOH list here for a long time. Understanding it’s not perfect, especially going back on past mergers..when would have been good time to start?

You know full well the politics of change, meaning the removal of ALPA, went much deeper than just the Merger issues. It was indeed a perfect storm that brought a group of pilots to finally act. Bemoaning the fact they did not act sooner is, well I am not even sure how to say it. When you have guys that for years never even bothered to vote, much less even join in a picket line, then sometimes it takes a wakeup call to get them moving. They moved indeed.
RR

 

[BLT]

Here is a history lesson for you on hard realities of bankruptcy and solidarity and hard work of a bargaining team
IN NOVEMBER 2004 The CWA national executive board voted unanimously to authorize strike action by 6,000 passenger service agents against US Airways, clearing the way for CWA's president to set a strike date.
The passenger service agents voted by 86 percent to authorize a strike against the airline in a membership referendum.
Meanwhile, CWA negotiators continue to meet with US Airways management in an attempt to reach a new labor settlement.
IN JULY 2004 Management demanded devastating pay and benefits concessions from the agents and petitioned the bankruptcy judge to throw out the union contract.
The extreme part of management’s demand was that, even after US Airways employees have our pay and benefits cut to America West Pay top rate of $13.10 per hour
Management proposal was to offer a substandard buyout package and those who refuse the buyout and remain on the job would be reduced to the America West level in pay, vacation, sick benefits, and retirement.
Those recalled from furlough would come back at the starting HP rate.
Those on the job would be reduced to the America West pay scale (top rate of $13.10 per hour
Back by a strong and widespread strike vote CWA was able to push back some of harsh and extreme proposals in particular the demand that the agents drop down to America west pay levels. There is no question management would have if the agents at USAIRWAYS did not have UNION solidarity
IN DECEMBER 2004 the agents voted on a tentative agreement

Management played hardball because they were dealing with a union. They always start with a lowball insulting offer that they don't expect you to take. It lowers your expectations and then lessens the blow when you end up with something slightly better. Its labor relations 101. Had you been nonunion you probably would have ended up with the same result, maybe better.

 

[john john]

take it away Ralph

 

[john john]

Had you been nonunion you probably would have ended up with the same result, maybe better.

If you believe this you have a lot to learn about labor relations 101 with HP/US
Why did HP always paid there agents way below industry standards
You sure are a piece of work! a naive puppet Scary for your work group
You need to research glass and gang or maybe you have

 

[Edward]

Folks this is the pilots labor thread. Let's stay on pilot issues. Thank you.

 

[cleardirect]

And there were also no complaints by a very well off pilot group (at the time) when PI did not give Empire DOH with fences and restrictions. That was not my battle and I was on neither property for the discussion, so I have no idea of the thought processes going on. All I really know is under the USAPA CBA it would have gone down differently. As would have the Shuttle.

OK you are going to have to explain how this merger would have gone down differently. The AAA MC/MEC demanded DOH, after mediation went to LOS. Even in the face of the arbitrator telling the east that you were not going to get DOH/LOS the east stood on your position. How is that any different than usapa and a constitutional position? If usapa were to walk into arbitration and tell the arbitrator that you cannot constitutionally move from a DOH position what do you think he is going to say? Oh OK that is what you get or do you think that he will laugh at your C&BL and explain that they have no meaning in the arbitration world.

Your point on this pilot group not taking action (s) sooner is well taken, but they finally did. USAPA cannot "undo" the Shuttle integration, nor the Empire one..but we can going forward make sure the same thing does not happen again.

How. See about paragraph.

Go ahead and keep making fun of "gold standard." That phrase will either stick very soon, or forever be the laughing stock of a few thousand West pilots and apparently you. But DOH has indeed been a standard in this country for labor integrations for a long time. We might have an exception here, but I don't think so.

“The gold standardâ€￾ Yep that is going to be a laughing point along with a pointless Turkey coupon. Only one of the many items that usapa has brought upon themselves.

You know full well the politics of change, meaning the removal of ALPA, went much deeper than just the Merger issues. It was indeed a perfect storm that brought a group of pilots to finally act. Bemoaning the fact they did not act sooner is, well I am not even sure how to say it. When you have guys that for years never even bothered to vote, much less even join in a picket line, then sometimes it takes a wakeup call to get them moving. They moved indeed.
RR

Complaining about the lack of voting during ALPA. Hello pot meet kettle. Look at the last three votes taken by usapa. Less than 60% for all of them. What I find unbelievable is the pension investigation vote. 54% that includes west members. Here you tell us how upset you all are about losing your pension yet half don’t even bother to vote or even care that the union is going to take $540 per year out of your pockets. Other than the Nicolau list what does it take for half of the east pilots to even bother with what is going on? So don’t try and sell that everyone was mad at ALPA. It was about the seniority nothing else and that is about to come to an end.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It looks a little like the east woke up and voted when the Seham firm told them they could get out of the nic, and then went back to sleep. Fifty four percent participation, including west pilots, on the pension referendum vote?

 

[Al Legheny]

Well,

On a new note there is a new video out on the USAPA web site. Seham, Mike Cleary and Randy "Lurch" Mowrey all apper. The subject of this video is Federal Courts Treatment of Seniority Integration.

http://usairlinepilots.org/members-only/us...eal_process.htm

Enjoy

 

[cubfan]

“ a pointless Turkey coupon.

hey I liked the coupon, saved me 10 bucks. More than I got from mgt.

 

[Reed Richards]

OK you are going to have to explain how this merger would have gone down differently. The AAA MC/MEC demanded DOH, after mediation went to LOS. Even in the face of the arbitrator telling the east that you were not going to get DOH/LOS the east stood on your position. How is that any different than usapa and a constitutional position? If usapa were to walk into arbitration and tell the arbitrator that you cannot constitutionally move from a DOH position what do you think he is going to say? Oh OK that is what you get or do you think that he will laugh at your C&BL and explain that they have no meaning in the arbitration world.

I do not agree, but understand we are in fantasyland here. Had indeed, like USAPA, DOH been in the CBL for the ALPA carriers involved, the list would have been set in stone. It would be the Conditions and Restrictions that would have gone to arbitration. There would be no movement from or to DOH for the arbitrator to decide.

Of course I understand if we have another arbitration in a merger with (obviously) a non USAPA carrier, we will indeed be starting with all the marbles on the table. I will still take Allegheny/Mohawk over ALPA any day.

I understand this all may be wasted bandwidth, if Nic prevails. But if it is rendered moot, put asided, etc this will be a discussion we all will need to have again.

RR

 

[cleardirect]

I do not agree, but understand we are in fantasyland here. Had indeed, like USAPA, DOH been in the CBL for the ALPA carriers involved, the list would have been set in stone. It would be the Conditions and Restrictions that would have gone to arbitration. There would be no movement from or to DOH for the arbitrator to decide.

Of course I understand if we have another arbitration in a merger with (obviously) a non USAPA carrier, we will indeed be starting with all the marbles on the table. I will still take Allegheny/Mohawk over ALPA any day.

I understand this all may be wasted bandwidth, if Nic prevails. But if it is rendered moot, put asided, etc this will be a discussion we all will need to have again.

RR

So I live in fantasyland but you avoided the question. Your statement was

“All I really know is under the USAPA CBA it would have gone down differentlyâ€￾.

What you responded with was how it would have been different under a different ALPA policy. So again how would it be different under usapa? Specifically “it WOULD have GONE down differentlyâ€￾ Those are past tense words not a future event. As I said AAA NC/MEC stood firm on DOH/LOS just the same as the usapa C&BL demand. Now explain how it would have been different? You admit that all of the marbles would be on the table. That means something other than DOH. Oops against C&BL or are you saying that usapa C&BL would mean nothing during a merger/arbitration. Using A/M and the new McKaskell (sp) bill it is still arbitration. A/M does not specify DOH but the McKaskell bill does specify fairness. We all know DOH is unfair to 85% of the west pilots.

Just to be clear. The ninth is not deciding on the Nicolau, the Nicolau has already prevailed. The ninth is going to rule on whether Judge Wake made an error or not the ninth will not nor cannot render the Nicolau list moot. If someone told you that or that is your belief then it is completely incorrect. If judge Wake made an error we go back and do the trial again. USAPA is still on the hook for DFR. I will guarantee that the Nicolau list will be a very small part of the trial next time, if we go there.