US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/29-10/7

[Richard]

Here's the new thread for the week -- please re-read the rules of the board and keep it civil and on topic.

Thank you.

 

[Captain Underpants]

It is interesting how a Federal Judge could allow himself to be dragged into such a quagmire. If Judge Wake tries to protect the AWA pilots Nic windfall it will result in an absolute stalemate.

Any union including USAPA has an ongoing duty of fair representation including trying to negotiate a fair contract. This duty as well as the USAPA constitution binds USAPA to try to eliminate the Nic windfall while at the same time follow a court order which is blindly trying to preserve the windfall for the "protected" class.

The most likely result now is for the union to try to compromise the multiple fairness issues in a good faith effort to negotiate a fair contract. If the union can for example successfully mitigate half the Nic windfall without court interference then the resulting contract would be doomed to rejection. The union would be morally and legally obligated to distribute the Nic damage equally among the non-protected East class resulting in raises and contract gains expected by the East top 500 being diverted to share the Nic damage with the permanently junior East Nic victims. Multiple DFR suits would be filed to try to change the union's bargaining positions by court orders with continuous ruinous litigation.

Nearly all East pilots would vote against as half the damage of Nic would remain resulting in either a permanent loss of seniority or a permanent loss of expected raises and contract improvements of the last career contract for the East senior 500.

Nearly all West voting migs would also vote against as half the expected Nic windfall would be lost. The inevitable result would likely be up to 90% of pilots rejecting any contract containing the Nic. The only way a contract containing Nic could pass a majority vote would be if the company pays for the Nic windfall on top of the cost for an industry standard contract or the Nic windfall is completely eliminated resulting in no damages to share for the non-protected East pilots.

A stalemate of this magnitude would eventually force either a strike or a breakup of the company.

There is a simple and fair solution. Repeat the seniority arbitration as many times as necessary consistent with current Federal seniority law using a panel of three neutral arbitrators and AAA/Mohawk protective provisions. Negotiate a contract free of the Nic constraint with immediate implementation of the subsequent Federal arbitration panel award. If the Nic award is fair it would be affirmed by the Federal panel and if it is unfair it would be tossed out. Repeating seniority arbitrations multiple times if needed harms no one and eventually both sides will find no need to risk a repeat arbitration.

underpants

 

[nic4us]

If Judge Wake tries to protect the AWA pilots Nic windfall it will result in an absolute stalemate.

Any union including USAPA has an ongoing duty of fair representation including trying to negotiate a fair contract. This duty as well as the USAPA constitution binds USAPA to try to eliminate the Nic windfall while at the same time follow a court order which is blindly trying to preserve the windfall for the "protected" class.

The most likely result now is for the union to try to compromise the multiple fairness issues in a good faith effort to negotiate a fair contract. If the union can for example successfully mitigate half the Nic windfall without court interference then the resulting contract would be doomed to rejection.

Nearly all East pilots would vote against as half the damage of Nic would remain resulting in either a permanent loss of seniority or a permanent loss of expected raises and contract improvements of the last career contract for the East senior 500.

The only way a contract containing Nic could pass a majority vote would be if the company pays for the Nic windfall on top of the cost for an industry standard contract or the Nic windfall is completely eliminated resulting in no damages to share for the non-protected East pilots.



There is a simple and fair solution. Repeat the seniority arbitration as many times as necessary consistent with current Federal seniority law using a panel of three neutral arbitrators and AAA/Mohawk protective provisions. Negotiate a contract free of the Nic constraint with immediate implementation of the subsequent Federal arbitration panel award. If the Nic award is fair it would be affirmed by the Federal panel and if it is unfair it would be tossed out. Repeating seniority arbitrations multiple times if needed harms no one and eventually both sides will find no need to risk a repeat arbitration.

underpants

Underpants

There is no harm in trying to find a solution, but this idea is lacking because you are making assumptions that just are not true.

First, the Nic is completely fair and follows all 5 tenants of ALPA merger policy, including no windfall. So to start your underlying premise is flawed.

Second, repeating arbitrations harms everyone. Arbitrations are called when two parties cannot reach agreement, we cannot reach agreement, an arbitration was called, it resulted in the fair and balanced Nic award that actually favors the east position. If we did a redo and the Nic was affirmed usapa and yourself would simply say oh it is not fair we need another redo until such time as you get the result you desire at which point the West will say , well that was unfair, we need a redo.

So, the solution is not lets keep redoing seniority arbitrations until you get your desired result. The arbitration phase is long over, and hopefully soon, the litigation phase will end.


DELETED BY MODERATOR--PLEASE REVIEW RULE #7 AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM.

 

[cleardirect]

Now that is some funny stuff Captain.

 

[ClueByFour]

A stalemate of this magnitude would eventually force either a strike or a breakup of the company.

Untrue for any number of reasons, notably that the group (East) lacks the stones for a strike, the group (all) lacks the unity for a strike, and in the absence thereof the company won't be broken up.

There is a simple and fair solution. Repeat the seniority arbitration as many times as necessary consistent with current Federal seniority law using a panel of three neutral arbitrators and AAA/Mohawk protective provisions.

Federal law thus far has shown you that you don't get a mulligan. And even if that silly situation were to come to pass, it's entirely likely that the Nicolau award would be upheld.

The East guys are going to get their chance: LOA 93 forever or a contract with Nicolau.

You really should have thought about this before going to arbitration in the first place.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Yet another personal opinion that the Nicolau list constitutes a windfall. I have some questions for anyone who subscribes to that opinion.

If Nicolau (and the two pilot neutrals) granted the West a windfall that necessarily means Nicolau (and the two pilot neutrals) were biased against the East. Why do you think Nicolau would be biased?

The USAPA document just filed with the 9th Circuit accuses Judge Wake of being biased against the East. Why would Judge Wake be biased against the East?

If the Appellate Court rules against USAPA (as everybody other than President Cleary and message-board experts expect) will that also be because they're biased?

Was the judge who dismissed the Rico suit also biased against the East?

If every judge, jury, and arbitrator rule against the East does that mean they're all biased?

 

[flyer63]

underpants, I agree with you.
I do not belive the NIC will ever be part of the contract just my opinion and I'm not like a lot on here from the west that think this thing is already resolved and a slam dunk.

but IF the NIC becomes part of the contract I agree the compensation schedule will have to change to compensate those hurt the most. It's pretty easy to see who that is and IT definetly could happen. How about 25 year steps. I honestly don't care if I ever see the left seat, but I do want to be paid and not held back by a west new hire.

 

[cleardirect]

underpants, I agree with you.
I do not belive the NIC will ever be part of the contract just my opinion and I'm not like a lot on here from the west that think this thing is already resolved and a slam dunk.

but IF the NIC becomes part of the contract I agree the compensation schedule will have to change to compensate those hurt the most. It's pretty easy to see who that is and IT definetly could happen. How about 25 year steps. I honestly don't care if I ever see the left seat, but I do want to be paid and not held back by a west new hire.

You can have a 25 year step. All you have to do is convince the captains to give up their money and shift it down the scale. Simple!

What do you consider a new hire?

 

[cynic]

What do you consider a new hire?

Everyone with a DOH after him

 

[nic4us]

but IF the NIC becomes part of the contract I agree the compensation schedule will have to change to compensate those hurt the most. It's pretty easy to see who that is and IT definetly could happen. How about 25 year steps. I honestly don't care if I ever see the left seat, but I do want to be paid and not held back by a west new hire.

Actually to pass a contract, the compensation package will have to be such as to get a majority to vote it in. If that incorporates 25 year F/O payscales, so be it, but that is not the only way to gain a majority.

How are you held back by a newhire? The Nic is ratioed, you are not held back anymore than you would be had the merger never happened. East attrition will be shared, as well as west attrition and perhaps even growth. When it is all lumped together, you have the same or possibly a slight decrease in upward mobility, but I fail to see how that could be described as holding you back.

 

[hp_fa]

Hi Captain Underpants,

Judge Wake's finding was that USAPA, and its subsequent constitution, was formed as a pretext in order to avoid the Nicolau arbitration. There is more to it than that, but the finding of USAPA and its constitution being a pretext is neither something USAPA wanted to happen, nor is it something they even raised in their appellate brief.

 

[flyer63]

Actually to pass a contract, the compensation package will have to be such as to get a majority to vote it in. If that incorporates 25 year F/O payscales, so be it, but that is not the only way to gain a majority.

How are you held back by a newhire? The Nic is ratioed, you are not held back anymore than you would be had the merger never happened. East attrition will be shared, as well as west attrition and perhaps even growth. When it is all lumped together, you have the same or possibly a slight decrease in upward mobility, but I fail to see how that could be described as holding you back.

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give me a break the nic is not ratioed... It's mixing us who have 13 years of active with new hires...
it's taking the attrition we brought and mixing it in this cespool of a pilot group. The west fails to understand that the vast majority of f/o's hired in the 88-89 range stuck around here because we knew once the flood gates opened the movement would be fast and furious. Now YOU and the NIC are trying to take that away.

as I said.. OMDB..... the fight lives on... and I seriously doubt we can ever fly together.... no matter what your boy Parker and Kirby say.

 

[nic4us]

****************************

give me a break the nic is not ratioed... It's mixing us who have 13 years of active with new hires...
it's taking the attrition we brought and mixing it in this cespool of a pilot group. The west fails to understand that the vast majority of f/o's hired in the 88-89 range stuck around here because we knew once the flood gates opened the movement would be fast and furious. Now YOU and the NIC are trying to take that away.



no matter what your boy Parker and Kirby say.

The Nic list is most certainly a ratioed list. Aside from the top 517 given to the east, the remainder of the list is slotted according to your status and position prior to the merger.

My original point was, if the flood gates ever open, movement will still be fast and furious, and you will still take part in it. East pilots continue to look at this as though the west was added to your list, this is not the case, two list were combined.

Also, is this a southern expression or what???? Judge Wake, Parker and Kirby are not my boy????? I find it weird to refer to them as such.

 

[cleardirect]

****************************

give me a break the nic is not ratioed... It's mixing us who have 13 years of active with new hires...
it's taking the attrition we brought and mixing it in this cespool of a pilot group. The west fails to understand that the vast majority of f/o's hired in the 88-89 range stuck around here because we knew once the flood gates opened the movement would be fast and furious. Now YOU and the NIC are trying to take that away.

as I said.. OMDB..... the fight lives on... and I seriously doubt we can ever fly together.... no matter what your boy Parker and Kirby say.

Do you mean the 88-89 hires that were furloughed? The ones that did not bring a job to this party? The ones that stuck around for 20 years at the bottom of a stagnate list? That is a long time waiting for some miracle to happen.

Mixing, ratioed whatever you call it. Take a look at the Nicolau list. At the break point between captains and F/O. The list was ratioed (mixed) at a 2.6 to 1 or 62% . From 2977 to 3100. 124 pilots 77 are east. So the east has 2.6 times more F/O’s in line for upgrade then the west. At the very bottom of the active list it is ratioed at 2.4 east for every 1 west pilot. From O’Dell up 119 spots 71 are east pilots.

For every 300 pilots that retire 186 east pilots get those spots 132 west.. Not all of the east retires are captains. 99% of the west retires are captains. Makes our attrition more valuable. At the beginning of this mess the west only had 805 F/O’s. How long is your career expectation going to be delayed?

What the east wants with DOH is to place the furloughed pilots (mixed) in with the west mid seniority captains. Nicoalu and the two neutrals saw that as a non starter.

Doubt all day long but when it comes time to fly, make a choice. Fly with the guys assigned or find something else to do.

 

[hp_fa]

I would have called it a hybrid list.