US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/14-10/22

[Reed Richards]

Clear in quotes:


"Yep. The fourth circuit asked for formal briefs. Why? Is it an indication of anything other than perhaps when Seham filed he failed to follow the court rules and it is a redo. Nothing more, no big deal. Just more union money out the door."

Good, so what you are telling me is all costs are on the side of USAPA, none on the Cactus 18?

"BTW that puts the RICO cost to the union about $260,000. Feel better?"

No Clear, I feel terrible about those moneys being spent. What a waste, but better spent than losing the entire union to theft. Funny thing is, those that stole said moneys are paying their fair share now for legal costs, on the USAPA side.

"Yes the turkey. Would all of you like some moldy Wolfe wheel of cheese to go along with that.
This job provides the funds for me and the rest of the west pilots to buy turkeys for our own families . The plan is to donate our turkey to charity. Would any east pilot like to help the needy?"

All jokes aside, what a fine idea. But you have missed the intent of the gesture entirely, at least in my opinion. If you indeed donate to a family in need, that is a very nice thing you are doing.

RR

 

[GuntherA320]

Mark Twain said,

"Be respectful to your superiors, if you have any; also to strangers, and sometimes to others. If a person offends you, and you are in doubt as to whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to extreme measure; simply watch your chance and hit him with a brick. That will be sufficient. If you shall find that he had not intended any offense, come out frankly and confess yourself in the wrong when you struck him; acknowledge it like a man, and say you didn't mean to."

Jim,

Displacements do not necessarily make a bid a negative bid. You and I are saying the same thing about displacements.....from this bid to the next there will be displacements.....Because as you said there is a shift in flying from airplanes and bases. however....pilots will displace to their rightful places.......it is a neutral bid when we all expected it to be a negative bid. If you were really on the Bid Closing Committee you would know that. I'll ask Steve about you tomorrow. I'm sure i'll get an earful. You can try and twist this anyway you like....it's a neutral bid and you know it.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Clear in quotes:


"Yep. The fourth circuit asked for formal briefs. Why? Is it an indication of anything other than perhaps when Seham filed he failed to follow the court rules and it is a redo. Nothing more, no big deal. Just more union money out the door."

Good, so what you are telling me is all costs are on the side of USAPA, none on the Cactus 18?

"BTW that puts the RICO cost to the union about $260,000. Feel better?"

No Clear, I feel terrible about those moneys being spent. What a waste, but better spent than losing the entire union to theft. Funny thing is, those that stole said moneys are paying their fair share now for legal costs, on the USAPA side.


RR

The 18 have to file briefs just like usapa. And the guy who simply posted about not taking an east pilot on his jumpseat still has a racketeering lawsuit hanging over his head. And he gets to wonder whether or not this thing will end up bankrupting himself and his family. And he gets to have his character coming into question continually, justified or not. That's not even the tip of the ice berg.

Who knew posting on a web board about not taking an east pilot on his jumpseat could become such an expensive, stressful and potentially bankrupting experience? Doesn't matter that he didn't do anything, just going through the motions of proving his innocence is potentially bankrupting. In fact that suit could very well have already bankrupted some or all individuals, had it not been for the financial support of his brothers and sisters who recognized what was happening.

That 260 grand was cheap. If it had not gotten dismissed the costs would have been much higher. Usapa could afford it, the individual who posted on the web board could not.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Displacements does not necessarily make a bid a negative bid.

A bid is what it is, but try telling someone pushed back to FO that it's not negative.

You and I are saying the same thing about displacements.....from this bid to the next there will be displacements

Let's see...would that be when you said "4 captain positions that are going to force 4 junior captains back to senior F/O."

Or when you said "Four Capt's that would have never been Capt's had it not been for four capt's that went out on medical will be returning to F/O positions."

Or when you said "While 4 returning captains COULD cause 10-15-20 displacements......the end result is the same.....people end up going back to the positions they were suppose to be in in the first place."

I give up - in which version are we "saying the same thing?"

however....pilots will displace to their rightful places

I guess it depends on how you define "their rightful places." I've a hunch your's doesn't consider longevity in the position - i.e. "last one awarded the position is the first one to lose it" doesn't enter into your equation.

it is a neutral bid when we all expected it to be a negative bid. If you were really on the Bid Closing Committee you would know that.

Even I expected furloughs and was pleasently surprised that there won't be any in this bid. I can only assume that the company thinks it's cheaper to keep the extra headcound on the payroll (especially since they're pushed to the lowest paying positions if not already there) instead of paying the cost of furloughing.

[

I'll ask Steve about you tomorrow. I'm sure i'll get an earful.

You do that. If he was there when I was (the only Steve I recall off the top of my head was back in the mid-late 90's). Maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

Jim

It really is quite simple when you put it that way isn't it?......last in....first out.....It means they haven't held that postition for very long. I would have no problem facing any of the captain's that are being displaced to F/O.....simple fact is...and you know it is that the net result at the end of the day will be the same.....same amount of Captains on the next bid......If you are a bottom Capt and want to chase the position through they system....that is your prerogative. Most of the Capt's that are being displaced can hold A330 F/O which is really a latteral move. The bottom 330 F/O just recently got the position.....may not have even trained to it yet.....so yes Jim....people will end up being right where they are suppose to be.

You can try to lecture me like I am a child Jim but that won't work with me. It is obvious to most that you enjoy berating people here and will do anything you have to to prove that you are right. The last sentence in your previous post is proof of that. It is a very pompous air that you have. If anyone else here said that, the moderators would be all over them. You get away with it because you scream the loudest and the longest and spout out as many figures as you can to make yourself appear to be right. Look at the topics on this forum. How many have you commented on? Some people would call that a know it all. How many topics were you the last person to post? That's someone that can't stand not getting in the last word. What do you see when you look in the mirror Jim? Were you this negative and condesending when you were a captain at Piedmont? It's no wonder there isn't an east pilot here that gets along with you.


Like so many before me, I am done trying to convince you of anything. You can be negative and huff and puff and feel self righteous once again. You win. I will take solace in the fact that eveyone else here knows this is a neutral bid. I will be optimistic tomorrow and you will still be a curmudgeon in the morning. I will give you credit though....you got me to argue the point long after the horse was dead.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll let you all return to your regularly scheduled programing....I just get a kick of those that throw a tantrum when anything they say is questioned.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

I'll let you all return to your regularly scheduled programing....I just get a kick of those that throw a tantrum when anything they say is questioned.

Jim

See my previous post on getting in the last word. And the last sentence? Pot meet Kettle.

 

[Al Legheny]

Tiger, I agree with some what you said. JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! But this was a win for all and should not be turned into political intrigue that isn't there. We (E/W both) won the war, lets not lose the peace settlement due to bashing or paranoia. That said, the peace treaty terms should be all ours. This is NOT an ALPA-style out-of-court settlement conference with any give and take. The company flatout lost. They will have to comply and pay for the actual losses. I don't think they need to bring the hours back. But they got to pay, recall and upgrade as if the hours were back. Your characterization that USAPA is going to do some back-room deal doesn't do the cause any good. All back east know we're still separate, so what percentage West lost, you should be made whole, in kind. Back pay for furloughed pilots, jobs back, upgrades back, additional pay for lossses due to being knocked off a block holder to reserve.

Doing the right thing doesn't kick anyone in the shorts except the company. This constant bashing/paraonia really needs to stop. You got your guy on the settlement committee. One from each east and west. As it should be.

The E190s is a separate issue. They were never in the aircraft list. As we lose them, the East pilot alone will take the hit. That's the way it has to be. If blocks hours fall below the TA level as a result, then we just go back to Bloch. The issue is already settled.

IF the block hours shifted back to the West, then the East might go below TA limits. We've already won the grievance. Bloch still has jurisdiction. No need for another arbitration. The issue is done. I don't see any rabitt the company can pull out of their hat not refuse to comply. I also don't see them ticking off an arbitrator that will be handling future grievances.

One question for you, after #8 loss came out, some of your normal bashers did the "neener, neener, neener" thing, that USAPA didn't know what it was doing. When the #10 win came out, it was a shift to how's USAPA going to screw us. You don't have to thank USAPA, but do you think maybe we can put a stop to that kind of chat? At least until the remedy comes out? I'll bit my tongue on this side. Will you? (Ok, that was 2 questions)

Mega, you're right on them paying actual losses, but don't jump the gun on recalls.
TA 10 was only for the months the company was under the limits. I hear they're back
in compliance now. There may not be any jobs come back, but it's going to cost the
company a lot in covering furloughed pilots for the months they were under.

Al

 

[Phoenix]

Yep. The fourth circuit asked for formal briefs. Why? Is it an indication of anything other than perhaps when Seham filed he failed to follow the court rules and it is a redo. Nothing more, no big deal. Just more union money out the door.

BTW that puts the RICO cost to the union about $260,000. Feel better?

Yes the turkey. Would all of you like some moldy Wolfe wheel of cheese to go along with that.

This job provides the funds for me and the rest of the west pilots to buy turkeys for our own families . The plan is to donate our turkey to charity. Would any east pilot like to help the needy?

The Wolfe wheel of cheese...

In view of the Wolf years, when the "wheel" of cheese was given long before we ever gave any thought to the existence of AWA, someone would have to be a USAir employee to know about the "wheel" of cheese... (right you are. I remember it now.. it could be described as a wheel.. by someone who actually received it)

...maybe a USAir pilot before they were an AWA pilot (and thus on the NIC list twice, 1,300 numbers apart)... it all makes sense now.

Cheers

 

[Pi brat]

No Clear, I feel terrible about those moneys being spent. What a waste, but better spent than losing the entire union to theft. Funny thing is, those that stole said moneys are paying their fair share now for legal costs, on the USAPA side.


RR

If what was going on could put USAPA out of business, it deserves to go our of business. Yes, it needed to be stopped, but the way it was done was way overboard with too much collateral damage. It might not be an A bomb used when a hand grenade would do, but at least napalm and a few 500lbs.

Innocent people and their families got drug into this. If Cleary was a real leader he would have stopped this a long time ago.

 

[Phoenix]

More than 75% of the voters agreed with this and most of them were not furloughed.

So what? Since when did pilots recognize the authority of a democratic vote?

 

[cleardirect]

The Wolfe wheel of cheese...

In view of the Wolf years, when the "wheel" of cheese was given long before we ever gave any thought to the existence of AWA, someone would have to be a USAir employee to know about the "wheel" of cheese... (right you are. I remember it now.. it could be described as a wheel.. by someone who actually received it)

...maybe a USAir pilot before they were an AWA pilot (and thus on the NIC list twice, 1,300 numbers apart)... it all makes sense now.

Cheers

Maybe?

 

[Richard]

Just a reminder folks--do not make it personal...and if you want to go back and forth with one specific member use the PM feature.

Thank you

 

[TheBadCat1313]

Nope, and although US Air at one time did fly routes like PHX-SAN, PHX-LAX, AWA never flew CLT-EWR. It's clear the company reduced west flying too much and shifted some east excess to the west. USAPA filed a grievance about it, and won! Why are you guys arguing about this?

I stand corrected on the CLT/PHX route.

What either airline "once" flew is irrelevant. AWA "once" flew PHX - NRT. So what?

You're right, though. They did reduce west block hours way too much. Now they're going to have to increase them and bring back west pilots as a result of the grievance (which, btw was only filed by USAPA as a defensive move in response to the Addington litigation).

 

[CactusFlyr]

The 18 have to file briefs just like usapa. And the guy who simply posted about not taking an east pilot on his jumpseat still has a racketeering lawsuit hanging over his head. And he gets to wonder whether or not this thing will end up bankrupting himself and his family. And he gets to have his character coming into question continually, justified or not. That's not even the tip of the ice berg.

Who knew posting on a web board about not taking an east pilot on his jumpseat could become such an expensive, stressful and potentially bankrupting experience? Doesn't matter that he didn't do anything, just going through the motions of proving his innocence is potentially bankrupting. In fact that suit could very well have already bankrupted some or all individuals, had it not been for the financial support of his brothers and sisters who recognized what was happening.

That 260 grand was cheap. If it had not gotten dismissed the costs would have been much higher. Usapa could afford it, the individual who posted on the web board could not.

I, for one, would rather have my money going to something constructive.......furloughed pilots, professional experienced negotiators for a joint contract, our own pockets, ie....less dues, etc.