US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/14-10/22

[GuntherA320]

My point was that there's more to the story than "a gain of 5 positions". Yes, not furloughing is great news - I hope US never furloughs another pilot (or anyone else for that matter). but you'd already said that so no need for me to repeat it. The fact is that some folks will move backward despite there being no furloughs and "a gain of 5 positions". If giving the rest of the facts is "just being negative" tell me how you read the bid announcement differently.

Jim

I would be glad to Jim. OK Jim....here are the FACTS: Four Capt's that would have never been Capt's had it not been for four capt's that went out on medical will be returning to F/O positions. Staffing is increasing by 5 pilots when most everyone was expecting FURLOUGHS. What don't you get Jim? You spin everything negative that you possibly can. For just once can't you admit that this is good news? Does it make you feel more important when you try to bring other people down?

 

[BoeingBoy]

For just once can't you admit that this is good news?

As I said in my first response: " Yes, not furloughing is great news - I hope US never furloughs another pilot (or anyone else for that matter)."

OK Jim....here are the FACTS: Four Capt's that would never have been F/O's [Capt's maybe??] had it not been for four capt's that went out on medical will be returning to F/O positions.

That shows a basic misunderstanding of the bid award process although if you haven't worked with it it's an easy mistake to make. A Capt returning to the line displaces a Capt in that job (call it job A), which means 1 extra person in job A. So the bottom pilot in job A gets displaced, going to job B. Now there an extra person in job B so the bottom pilot in that job gets displaced, going to job C. Repeat until there are no extra people in a job when someone displaces into that job.

It depends on where the pilots returning to the line fit in - A 330 capt would cause more trickly down movement than a 737 capt, but in theory there could be 10-15-20 displacements per returning pilot.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

As I said in my first response: " Yes, not furloughing is great news - I hope US never furloughs another pilot (or anyone else for that matter)."



That shows a basic misunderstanding of the bid award process although if you haven't worked with it it's an easy mistake to make. A Capt returning to the line displaces a Capt in that job (call it job A), which means 1 extra person in job A. So the bottom pilot in job A gets displaced, going to job B. Now there an extra person in job B so the bottom pilot in that job gets displaced, going to job C. Repeat until there are no extra people in a job when someone displaces into that job.

It depends on where the pilots returning to the line fit in - A 330 capt would cause more trickly down movement than a 737 capt, but in theory there could be 10-15-20 displacements per returning pilot.

Jim

Jim....

There you go again.....you always put people down.....I work on the bid closing committee.....I understand the process....Your first sentence in the second paragraph is a way of trying to make yourself seem superior to other people.....you are not. When was the last time you closed a bid Jim? My simplistic view is not a mistake. While 4 returning captains COULD cause 10-15-20 displacements......the end result is the same.....people end up going back to the positions they were suppose to be in in the first place. I understand why other people give up trying to talk to you....you make mountains out of mole hills. And just like many other curmudgeons....you fail to be able to admit when you're wrong. My mistake was arguing a point with someone who would argue with a wall about what color it was.

End result....there are 5 more east pilots on the property in Jan 2010 than in Dec 2009. The amount of Captain postitions remains the same.

 

[Reed Richards]

Awww, that's nice. What about that other human touch, the one where they are still trying to ruin the lives of people who had the audacity to post on web boards? Something tells me the turkey gesture falls a little flat to them, as it does to the rest of us.

Awww, current events bring out the best in all of us! I will not waste too much time, yet again, of all the readers. Simply said there was no "audacity" involved, and "simply posting on the internet" was not the case. Perhaps you can fill all of us in on the latest events in all things Cactus 18? Anything going on? Anything?

As to the holiday turkey gesture, you are full of stuffing. A good union pilot would be soon rushing down to the market to buy that discount bird for his Thanksgiving meal. I am looking forward to the Holiday with my family...I have been missing them! I hope Johnny's "human touch" does not allow him to burn the bird, and I hope Ben's appetite allows for leftovers!

RR

 

[cleardirect]

If I understand the east bid right. The increase is 5 returning from leave.

Not knowing when the aircraft leave the property is a factor. The other factor is the company has to train the displaced captains back to F/O. That takes awhile.

The term training float comes to mind. If the aircraft leave Oct 31 I would expect the furloughs to be announced for Dec sometime or carried through to Jan 2010. Kind of cruel to dump someone right before the holidays.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Awww, current events bring out the best in all of us! I will not waste too much time, yet again, of all the readers. Simply said there was no "audacity" involved, and "simply posting on the internet" was not the case. Perhaps you can fill all of us in on the latest events in all thing Cactus 18? Anything going on? Anything?

As to the holiday turkey gesture, you are full of stuffing. A good union pilot would be soon rushing down to the market to buy that discount bird for his Thanksgiving meal. I am looking forward to the Holiday with my family...I have been missing them! I hope Johnny's "human touch" does not allow him to burn the bird, and I hope Ben's appetite allows for leftovers!

RR

Yes something is going on, as a matter of fact, usapa is still pursuing their appeal. And as far as simply posting on the internet goes, do you really believe saying you won't carry an east pilot on your jumpseat rises to the level of racketeering?

 

[GuntherA320]

If I understand the east bid right. The increase is 5 returning from leave.

Not knowing when the aircraft leave the property is a factor. The other factor is the company has to train the displaced captains back to F/O. That takes awhile.

The term training float comes to mind. If the aircraft leave Oct 31 I would expect the furloughs to be announced for Dec sometime or carried through to Jan 2010. Kind of cruel to dump someone right before the holidays.

Four pilots are returning from medical, one from USAPA, and one from termination. One pilot is leaving for the military. Training 4 captains takes about 3 weeks. Two aircraft are already gone. The remaining 8 will be gone before the end of the year. There are short lines in Charlotte for Dec on the E190. (Short lines means the lines are built for 60 to 65 hours but the pilots get paid for 80 hours) The Jan bid could in fact be a training float for some of the displacements. However, the penchant for this company to carry even one more person than absolutely neccesary would point to something different. The new Flight Time and Duty regs will be coming down at the beginning of the year. Expect them to take effect by the 3rd quarter of next year. At that point you should expect no furloughs under the current fleet plan East or West. Even a fleet plan without all the E190's will unlikely see furloughs after the new regs go into effect. If the company isn't in bankruptcy, they will likely have to hire pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

Awww, current events bring out the best in all of us! I will not waste too much time, yet again, of all the readers. Simply said there was no "audacity" involved, and "simply posting on the internet" was not the case. Perhaps you can fill all of us in on the latest events in all thing Cactus 18? Anything going on? Anything?

As to the holiday turkey gesture, you are full of stuffing. A good union pilot would be soon rushing down to the market to buy that discount bird for his Thanksgiving meal. I am looking forward to the Holiday with my family...I have been missing them! I hope Johnny's "human touch" does not allow him to burn the bird, and I hope Ben's appetite allows for leftovers!

RR

Yep. The fourth circuit asked for formal briefs. Why? Is it an indication of anything other than perhaps when Seham filed he failed to follow the court rules and it is a redo. Nothing more, no big deal. Just more union money out the door.

BTW that puts the RICO cost to the union about $260,000. Feel better?

Yes the turkey. Would all of you like some moldy Wolfe wheel of cheese to go along with that.

This job provides the funds for me and the rest of the west pilots to buy turkeys for our own families . The plan is to donate our turkey to charity. Would any east pilot like to help the needy?

 

[ggiby]

Yep. The fourth circuit asked for formal briefs. Why? Is it an indication of anything other than perhaps when Seham filed he failed to follow the court rules and it is a redo. Nothing more, no big deal. Just more union money out the door.

BTW that puts the RICO cost to the union about $260,000. Feel better?

Yes the turkey. Would all of you like some moldy Wolfe wheel of cheese to go along with that.

This job provides the funds for me and the rest of the west pilots to buy turkeys for our own families . The plan is to donate our turkey to charity. Would any east pilot like to help the needy?

I will donate the cheese

 

[ggiby]

I will donate the cheese

still have it...
care for some???
it was my bonus...
!!! Years ago....
still at my 1990 wage...
....
rest my case...
does anyone have any crackers????

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not knowing when the aircraft leave the property is a factor.

Looks like 4 leaving in Nov/Dec and the remaining 6 during the 1st half of 2010.

Jim

PS - I see Gunther has given an answer. Being a union insider and a bid closing expert his info is probably better than mine, which came from media quotes of Republic officials. Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

Looks like 4 leaving in Nov/Dec and the remaining 6 during the 1st half of 2010.

Jim

PS - I see Gunther has given an answer. Being a union insider and a bid closing expert his info is probably better than mine, which came from media quotes of Republic officials. Jim

Are you still pouting about earlier Jim? Technically you are correct if you are reading the media quotes.....Republic won't be flying all of the aircraft until the second quarter of 2010. They will be the OWNER of the aircraft before the end of the year. We are going to lease back a few of them for a varied period of time....some of them one month...some of them up to 5 months. That starts now. Two are already gone. The others will be transfered shortly. The aircraft will be down for up to a month getting the seats retrofitted. Curiously we are keeping all of the leather seats that the aircraft were delivered with.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Are you still pouting about earlier Jim?

Just letting it drop - the "you can lead a horse to water...." thing. But if you want to go back and forth again, they you should know that a pilot displaced when someone returns to the line is not usually the last pilot to be awarded that position or the pilot awarded that position when the guy/gal left the line. If you really do the bid closings you would know that. Same with any trickle down displacements - the guy on the bottom who in turn gets displaced is not necessarily the last one to be awarded that position.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

Just letting it drop - the "you can lead a horse to water...." thing. But if you want to go back and forth again, they you should know that a pilot displaced when someone returns to the line is not usually the last pilot to be awarded that position or the pilot awarded that position when the guy/gal left the line. If you really do the bid closings you would know that. Same with any trickle down displacements - the guy on the bottom who in turn gets displaced is not necessarily the last one to be awarded that position.

Jim

I agree Jim....let it drop....when you're wrong...you're wrong. We are saying the same thing about displacements....I never said that when a pilot comes back to the line he is the last pilot to be awarded the position. There are usually a couple of displacements. I see your strategy is to try to confuse people with technicalities and divert the conversation away from the facts.....The fact is there are 5 more people on the property in January period...you just want to be right. You are nit picking....I am in fact on that committee. You never did answer my question before. When were you on the bid closing committee and when was the last time you closed a bid? I know you are an expert on everything that is US Airways.....You have questioned me....now I am questioning you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

when you're wrong...you're wrong.

I'm not sure that those displaced would call it "nitpicking". Care to give the same info about bid 09-04 as you originally did about this bid and then give the number of displacements in bid 09-04? Probably not, so let me oblidge:

Head count remained the same and no furloughs would be your version. Sounds like a status quo bid from that info but there were 200 pilots displaced in bid 09-04. Why all those displacements when headcount stayed the same? The 19 pilots returning to the line did not go into the same slots as the 19 pilots leaving the line. There was a shift in flying - more 330 slots but less 76/75D slots. Finally a shift of blockholder slots to reserve slots. In other words, much the same as bid 10-01.

Jim

PS - from 1989 till Nov 2006. The rules haven't changed (unless the company snuck changes in on the new union guys). How long have you been on the committee?