US Pilots Labor Thread 1/13-1/20

[Captain Underpants]

PS Informed is empowered. Reading the pre-"merger" statistics of AAA and AWA, the transcripts of the arbitration, etc. will truly give you the actual picture of the events that have transpired.

Yes we are all well informed of how Nic and Alpa screwed up the seniority integration. The question is where do we go from here.

Using the Nic list which flips the seniority list upside down over time is not an option. The Nic list is not fixable and is unusable. If you try to fix the Nic list by adjusting to a present value for only the age related attrition correlated at r1(100%) the result would be a close to date of hire list with no conditions and restrictions. If you try to fix the Nic list with fences they would have to last more than 30 years as the list inverts over time.

Maintaining separate operations is OK but would result in anomalies if the growth is not equal on both sides. The best option so far is what USAPA has proposed which is a date of hire list with the protection of all former AWA pilot positions and career expectations.

underpants.

 

[cleardirect]

And if the judge fails to buy into your fantasy? Then what?

If the judge decides that USAPA’s “fairâ€￾ list does not represent the west as required. Then what? Violate a judges order? Change the name of the association in the hopes of avoiding the law?

It is that kind of thinking that brought us to where we are. The attitude that there is only one way to do seniority. DOH period. No negotiating just imposing.

I certainly hope that the negotiating committee has a little different attitude with the company. Well maybe not. Where is that quick contract usapa promised? Failing to compromise at the proper time will get you no where.

Any thoughts. Which comes first. A new certification drive or a contract?

 

[nic4us]

And if the judge fails to buy into your fantasy? Then what?

If the judge decides that USAPA’s “fairâ€￾ list does not represent the west as required. Then what? Violate a judges order? Change the name of the association in the hopes of avoiding the law?

It is that kind of thinking that brought us to where we are. The attitude that there is only one way to do seniority. DOH period. No negotiating just imposing.

I certainly hope that the negotiating committee has a little different attitude with the company. Well maybe not. Where is that quick contract usapa promised? Failing to compromise at the proper time will get you no where.

Any thoughts. Which comes first. A new certification drive or a contract?

Clear,

a TA for a new contract will be voted on, in an attempt to say a DOH list was actually used, as the decertification drive is coming to a closing deadline. This will give the east wiggle room in their delusional behavior as to why they should ignore the judges ruling.

 

[nic4us]

The problem is Nicolau failed to produce a "fair and equitable" seniority list. Fighting to force the use of the Nicolau list is sociopathic behavior which will continue to produce negative consequences for all USAirways pilots. The solution will come when the West pilots are ready to become productive members of our USAirway's pilot family and start fighting for the common good instead of simply their own self interest.

underpants.

The Nicolau list is fair and equitable and the West pilots will gladly fight for the common good when they no longer have to defend themselves from their siblings that are stealing their food at the family dinner table.

USAPA's DOH list is a travesty and the greatest example of kleptomania ever witnessed in a trade union.

Your sociopathic brother,

Nic4us

 

[kubotapilot]

Just curious,

any timeline update on the Addington case??? Trial date ? Are discovery / depositions complete ?

Not flaming, just asking simple questions.

Other than the Jan 16th extension grant (for discovery regarding the class action certification) I couldn't find any additional material.

And if the judge fails to buy into your fantasy? Then what?

If the judge decides that USAPA’s “fairâ€￾ list does not represent the west as required. Then what? Violate a judges order? Change the name of the association in the hopes of avoiding the law?

It is that kind of thinking that brought us to where we are. The attitude that there is only one way to do seniority. DOH period. No negotiating just imposing.

I certainly hope that the negotiating committee has a little different attitude with the company. Well maybe not. Where is that quick contract usapa promised? Failing to compromise at the proper time will get you no where.

Any thoughts. Which comes first. A new certification drive or a contract?

 

[fodase]

Just curious,

any timeline update on the Addington case??? Trial date ? Are discovery / depositions complete ?

Not flaming, just asking simple questions.

Other than the Jan 16th extension grant (for discovery regarding the class action certification) I couldn't find any additional material.

Usapa was granted a delay untild feb 15th. During discovery, as expected usapa in an effort to delay as long as possible went way over board on their requests. The judge didn't buy it and usapa council was once again reprimanded. they have until the 15th to reply. trial has been delayed 'till april and that seems to be holding steady. It would be sweet justice if usapa gets whacked on april 17th.

 

[sharktooth]

Please educate yourself and others. No whining, stating facts. According to the annual report. America West was the acquiring company. Another fact. Mr. Monda was incorrect about. The $500 million came AFTER the acquisition. September 27, 2005. US Airways had not lined up the financing.

Actually, they had. Reference the SEC filings.

I pointed out Monda's lies. Please be so kind to point to Mr. O'Neill's lies as you say. Prove that he lied. Just because it does not fit into you fantasy world does not make then lies.

His entire post is a lie, in every way shape and form. Where do I start? Overall, he asserts something not true. Like any scientific "proof" based on false premises, all else fails.

Do you think that this is a lie?

Um, yes. It is. It ignores that the MDA folks actually had a job on mainline US, at the time.

DELETED BY MODERATOR. Sorry about your lottery ticket. Just like Saddam's son's lottery tickets, they have been cancelled.

 

[cleardirect]

This is the third time Seham has been slapped by the judge. It must be nice to have deep pockets of other peoples dues money. Over the top discovery costs lots of money.


II. Discovery Planning
Accordingly, USAPA will be granted time to complete limited, focused, and nondilatory
discovery. It should be noted, however, that the interrogatories submitted as an
attachment to USAPA’s reply (doc. # 143-2) do not meet this standard. They are overbroad
and would forestall efficient resolution of the certification question. The parties will
therefore be ordered to confer about a schedule conducive to completing appropriate
discovery within the allotted time.

IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that Defendant USAPA’s Motion for Extension of
Time (doc. # 131) is granted. The deadline for Defendant USAPA’s Response to Plaintiffs’
Motion for Class Certification is extended to February 17, 2009. The parties will confer
forthwith to arrange for discovery to take place within the time allotted. This order amends
the Court’s order of December 15, 2008 (Docket No. 116).
DATED this 14th day of January, 2009.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

You know what I find real interesting. That the Westies asked for a jury trial when they first filed their case in September 2008 and then on January 15, 2009 they filed a motion to dismiss a jury trial. USAPA filed on the 16th stating they would like a jury trial. Gee, what happened on the 15th? Flight 1549. You have to wonder with all the press coverage "gushing" about how experienced the crew was (29 years for the captain; 23 years for the F/O) how a jury might be swayed. Afraid of a jury now, are we?

Later,
Eye

 

[ClueByFour]

If USAPA seriously entertained that strategy, the counsel for the West would destroy it (and every witness under the sun from the east) with two questions. Can you figure out what they are?

(hint: the first involves asking how many experienced US Air pilots does it take to keep them on the surface of the Hudson as opposed to under Flushing Bay. You can extrapolate the second).

One never should try to equate longevity to safety proficiency, especially when one's whole track record can pretty easily (and graphically) be decimated under cross. Glass houses and stones, and Sulley can't catch them all.

You know what I find real interesting. That the Westies asked for a jury trial when they first filed their case in September 2008 and then on January 15, 2009 they filed a motion to dismiss a jury trial. USAPA filed on the 16th stating they would like a jury trial. Gee, what happened on the 15th? Flight 1549. You have to wonder with all the press coverage "gushing" about how experienced the crew was (29 years for the captain; 23 years for the F/O) how a jury might be swayed. Afraid of a jury now, are we?

Later,
Eye

 

[cleardirect]

You know what I find real interesting. That the Westies asked for a jury trial when they first filed their case in September 2008 and then on January 15, 2009 they filed a motion to dismiss a jury trial. USAPA filed on the 16th stating they would like a jury trial. Gee, what happened on the 15th? Flight 1549. You have to wonder with all the press coverage "gushing" about how experienced the crew was (29 years for the captain; 23 years for the F/O) how a jury might be swayed. Afraid of a jury now, are we?

Later,
Eye

Really! You are kidding right? That is a long way to go for a conspiracy theory. What document are you talking about that was filed on the 15th? There was nothing filed by the plaintiffs regarding a jury trial.

How long do you think that it takes to put together a brief for the court? A single day to research, proof, and file in one day. Wrong.

DOH may be important to you. If it is a jury trial they will be read the law about DFR. Not how long a crew has been with a certain airline.

You guys really need to do some research and stop listening to the crew room theories. Man. This stuff is so easy to discredit. Ten seconds of research would stop you looking foolish.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Really! You are kidding right? That is a long way to go for a conspiracy theory. What document are you talking about that was filed on the 15th? There was nothing filed by the plaintiffs regarding a jury trial.

How long do you think that it takes to put together a brief for the court? A single day to research, proof, and file in one day. Wrong.

DOH may be important to you. If it is a jury trial they will be read the law about DFR. Not how long a crew has been with a certain airline.

You guys really need to do some research and stop listening to the crew room theories. Man. This stuff is so easy to discredit. Ten seconds of research would stop you looking foolish.

Eye is mostly right. Plaintiffs originally requested a jury trial when they filed their case and then later changed their mind demanding a bench trial and claiming USAPA has no right to a jury trial. USAPA has always requested a jury trial and claims a 7th amendment right to a jury trial in the document filed on 1/16/09.

Good luck convincing a jury that USAPA is being unfair to the West pilots by trying to place the senior by longevity and much more experienced East pilots ahead of the newer and less experienced West pilots. No denying after the events of last week that the public values experienced pilots and would probably prefer a 17 year East pilot to be senior to a 2 week new hire West pilot. I have served on juries and juries reach decisions based on emotion and their own personal beliefs of fairness as well as interpreting the law as instructed by the Judge. I am not surprised the plaintiffs are trying to deny USAPA a jury trial.

underpants.

 

[Freighterguynow]

You know what I find real interesting. That the Westies asked for a jury trial when they first filed their case in September 2008 and then on January 15, 2009 they filed a motion to dismiss a jury trial.
Later,
Eye

I, for one, welcome a jury trial.

I want to see you convince a panel of average citizens that you, as a group, refused to join, pay dues, participate in any manner whatsoever, jammed phone lines, mailed DOO - DOO and other overt acts of sabotage while threatening to 'destroy' the union; that you now, in turn, suffered harm because that union has not represented you to your satisfaction.

 

[V1cut]

On a 4- day trip last week I was asked about 6 times during boarding various flights how many years my crew had been with the company. A few of them were seated in FC and continued the dialogue during the rest of the boarding. Smiles of satisfaction beamed from them as the heard of our collective tenure for their flight. Yep, bring the jury trial on. Recent events in the Hudson coupled with a face to face recounting of what the west has done regarding the union?

Oh yeah, definitely a jury trial.

 

[cleardirect]

Eye is mostly right. Plaintiffs originally requested a jury trial when they filed their case and then later changed their mind demanding a bench trial and claiming USAPA has no right to a jury trial. USAPA has always requested a jury trial and claims a 7th amendment right to a jury trial in the document filed on 1/16/09.

You know what I find real interesting. That the Westies asked for a jury trial when they first filed their case in September 2008 and then on January 15, 2009 they filed a motion to dismiss a jury trial. USAPA filed on the 16th stating they would like a jury trial. Gee, what happened on the 15th? Flight 1549. You have to wonder with all the press coverage "gushing" about how experienced the crew was (29 years for the captain; 23 years for the F/O) how a jury might be swayed. Afraid of a jury now, are we?

Later,
Eye

How is eye “mostly rightâ€￾? Nothing he accused was correct. Eye said that the west filed a motion on Jan 15. Untrue. Eye accused the west of using the Jan 15 accident as a reason to change their mind. Not one part of his statement was true.

Good luck convincing a jury that USAPA is being unfair to the West pilots by trying to place the senior by longevity and much more experienced East pilots ahead of the newer and less experienced West pilots. No denying after the events of last week that the public values experienced pilots and would probably prefer a 17 year East pilot to be senior to a 2 week new hire West pilot. I have served on juries and juries reach decisions based on emotion and their own personal beliefs of fairness as well as interpreting the law as instructed by the Judge. I am not surprised the plaintiffs are trying to deny USAPA a jury trial.

underpants.

Good luck convincing a jury that falsely charging individual pilots is in the best interest of an association. Good luck convincing a jury that ignoring binding arbitration is OK. The public has a short memory. The Hudson incident will be long gone, replaced by the latest 15 minutes of fame.

Explain something to me. USAPA has crowed about the years of experience that they have into accident investigation. How is that possible when USAPA has only been in existence for 9 months? Would it be that they have experience from a prior union? Guess what. The west pilots have prior experience from other airlines. So your premise of the east being more experienced is false. Do you really believe that that pilot that was hired two months ago only has two months of experience?