US Pilots Labor Thread 1/13-1/20

[sharktooth]

Someone needs to quickly educate USAPA on how to achieve parity - because this isn't it!

Ever since USAPA was voted in, by a majority of the pilots, they have solicited input from west pilots in administrating the west contract. Until USAPA threatened (indirect) termination for non-payment of dues, few indeed had become members and the few that did, were not "up" on the west contract. It remained that way until recently.

You, yourself, proclaim that "someone needs to quickly educate USAPA...". Are you a person of action or simply words? Why not yourself? Become a person of action and right this (perceived) wrong.

 

[wopr21]

Piney,

one more thought . . .

When Flt 1549 Captain Sully retires, according to the Nicolau list, his Captain seat is available to a west F/O hired in 1999, instead of being available to Flt 1549 F/O Jeff Skiles, hired in 1986.

Like I said in my previous post, it is a zero sum game. There are limited number of slots.

The problem with the Nicolau award, and the posts of the west pilots here, is that they fail to understand the concept of seniority, the zero sum game of seniority, and the importance of seniority and longevity to the east pilot group.

It has been documented that there are thousands of "Captain years" that are transfered from the older east group to the younger west group. Once this transfer takes place, the east pilots will retire before the younger west pilots do, thus this "placement" or "award" of Captain positions is permanent for the west pilots, at the expense of the east pilots who BROUGHT these jobs to the merger.

Another thing that the west pilots will not acknowledge, is that if a Date of hire list is used, the east pilots will retire at a faster rate, and the west pilots will "inherit" these prize Captain slots as time goes on. Also, the Date of Hire list proposed by USAPA protects the west jobs with strict conditions and restrictions.

Think of it like this, the west pilots will get the slots anyway with this important point . . .

1. With Nicolau, the west pilots get the slots, and many (most) of the east pilots (who brought these jobs to the merger) will never get the chance to upgrade. The east pilots will suffer for the rest of their careers behind younger pilots and will never have the bidding power for upgrades, vacation and monthly bidding. It is permanent.

2. With Date of hire, the east pilots get the jobs, then when they retire, the west pilots get the jobs after all, because they are the younger group.

The West pilots have embarked on a "burn the house down" strategy with their refusal to join the union, and their lawsuits and destructive behavior.

This is why you see the rhetoric here from the west guys, they want their lottery ticket cashed, they want the east Captain jobs. The want the east wide-body jobs, both Capt and F/O, jobs they never had before the merger. They understand that if they get these jobs, it will be permanent, for the rest of their careers, and no east pilot will be able to displace them under the Nicolau lottery ticket.

Bus Driver

That was a great explanation.

To put it in simple terms, if the west was more senior ( more years of service) than the east, the east would have no problem with them being senior. It is understood that "your time will come" when that slot comes open as pilots leave.

Such a simple solution to a complex problem.

wopr

 

[cleardirect]

http://usapawatch.com/


There is no reason for usapa to post these articles. The first was an opinion in the Arizona Republic with a limited readership. The next from Monda was a rebuttal. Again to the same readership.

By usapa sending it to all of the pilots it continues to further divide the groups. This, after a week with the lowest tensions since usapa took over. Other then cranking up the tensions again what was USAPA’s point in doing this?

Monda has the right to have his opinion published. Usapa should not have used it as propaganda. Next usapa should have at least been honest they do have some responsibility to but out correct information. By publishing this piece they perpetuate the lies started during the arbitration.

First and foremost, no West pilot has lost a job to a laid-off (or active) East pilot.

Lie. There are currently new hires still on the property while Dave O’Dell is furloughed

At the time of the merger, AmWest was on the brink of its third bankruptcy, and its ATSB (Air Transportation Stabilization Board) loan was due.

Lie. AWA was only in bankruptcy once in the early 90’s. The ATSB loans were being paid on schedule.

US Airways, already in bankruptcy, had raised approximately $500 million for its exit. The strength of the US Airways franchise was validated in the six postmerger quarterly filings when management separated East and West data: East profits were $633 million; West were $11 million.

Lie. There is no evidence anywhere to prove this. Doug Parker himself has said the AAA would have liquidated within 30 days without the merger. He needs to learn something about accounting. The acquiring entity is charged with all of the merger costs. So with AWA management and yield management. The east was turned around and kept the profits AWA was charged the costs.

Imagine your union brother preventing equal pay for equal work!

Imagine your union brother suing brother pilots for millions of dollars because they disagree with being screwed by your union.

The East pilots remain on the moral high ground and, through the new union, will protect the seniority of all pilots, both East and West.

Does that moral high ground include disregarding binding arbitration? Does that moral high ground include trying to have west pilots terminated? Does that moral high ground include suing fellow pilots? Does that moral high ground include continuing the divide between the two groups by publishing lies?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/408/story/479974.html
US Airways' experience levels run high
Flight 1549's first officer has 23 years with carrier. Military vet pilot has 29 years.
By Jefferson George
jgeorge@charlotteobserver.com
Posted: Sunday, Jan. 18, 2009
More Information
Fewer pilots have military experience

The aging ranks and changing dynamic of airline pilots today suggests that in the future there might be fewer captains of commercial jets with military training like Chesley “Sullyâ€￾ Sullenberger, who flew F-4 fighter jets with the Air Force in the 1970s.

Roughly 28 percent of pilots hired by major U.S. carriers in 2008 had military backgrounds, compared to around 90 percent in 1992, according to Kit Darby, a retired United Airlines captain and current president of Aviation Information Resources, which helps pilots get jobs.

MOD NOTE: Reproducing entire articles without the written permission of the publisher is prohibited. Please use the link at the top to read the story.

 

[Crzipilot]

http://usapawatch.com/



Lie. There is no evidence anywhere to prove this. Doug Parker himself has said the AAA would have liquidated within 30 days without the merger. He needs to learn something about accounting. The acquiring entity is charged with all of the merger costs. So with AWA management and yield management. The east was turned around and kept the profits AWA was charged the costs.

Then shouldn't you also take Doug Parker's words that AWA would have had to drastically cut 15-20% if it wasn't for US????Possible BK for them too? or worse? Yup, use the crystal ball to determine the fate of US, and you must use same crystal ball for AW....

Oh right, you can only cherry pick what info you want to use.....


Heck, if you just take into effect the scaling down of the East side (crewed way lower than the West) in prep for the merger I'm sure, if you crewed the two airlines on equal staffing levels, the award would have looked drastically different. And if you don't think some of the scaling back wasn't done for the merger, then you really are lieing to yourself...

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Dear NLC,

With all due respect (actually, I am trying to be polite, as I really don't have much respect for your previous posts here . . )

The words are not stale for the east pilots, and their careers, and their many years of experience and seniority they bring to this company every day.

It is not a worn out argument, it is relevent for the east pilots.

Go ahead and post what YOU think are "significant" facts. Until you do, you are nothing but a bag of hot air flamebaiting with no credibility and nothing to contribute.

Are you married to Piney? Is that why you can speak for him?

Geez . . .

Grow up.

Bus Driver

The significant facts of seniority were brought forth in the arbitration. Remember that? No need to repeat them here. Maybe you should read the Nicolau award through and through. Apparently you haven't done so as yet.

And I am not flamebaiting anybody - the words you wrote are yet another repeat of words that have been posted here ad infinitum; words that reflect the overall "me me me" attitude of a group that claims to have superiority over the folks that I have worked with for the last 20+ years. You must feel the need to repeat them over and over again just to convince yourself that your self pity is justified. And that is probably the reason you and your ilk continue to berate and belittle anyone on these board who has a different opinion than you have.

Contribution? Here's one for you: get a copy of the Nicolau award, all the supporting documents, find a couple of free hours, a nice quiet space, and actually read it. Once you have done that, you will find that there is more than one side to this story. You will find out who it really is that can benefit from some "growing up."

Have the day of your choice.......

 

[cleardirect]

Then shouldn't you also take Doug Parker's words that AWA would have had to drastically cut 15-20% if it wasn't for US????Possible BK for them too? or worse? Yup, use the crystal ball to determine the fate of US, and you must use same crystal ball for AW....

Oh right, you can only cherry pick what info you want to use.....


Heck, if you just take into effect the scaling down of the East side (crewed way lower than the West) in prep for the merger I'm sure, if you crewed the two airlines on equal staffing levels, the award would have looked drastically different. And if you don't think some of the scaling back wasn't done for the merger, then you really are lieing to yourself...

To put my comment back in context. You ignored the question about the evidence of the $500 million.

Where is that evidence?

Nice change of subject though. What US Airways did before the merger has nothing to do with AWA. Should I complain about the new hires that were deferred and the upgrades stopped because of the merger? The deal that was made to place east furloughs on the AWA list instead of hiring pilots that were in our pool.

So lets stick to the article. Where is the proof of the $500 million? If US Airways was such a powerhouse airline. Why was it in bankruptcy for the third time?

All this had been reviewed. The experts were questioned under oath. What purpose does it serve to bring it up now? The Nicolau list was done using all of the evidence. A court is going to decide this very soon.

What was the purpose for usapa to publish this? Still trying to justify usapa’s position?

 

[N905TW]

The west pilots continue to press and pursue a strategy to gain career slots at the expense of East pilots.

Bus Driver

The West pilots?? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror. East had pilots furloughed 1500+ deep on the day of the merger, and they have all been offered recall and are still employed to this day, while 103 West pilots who WERE WORKING HERE and BROUGHT A JOB TO THE MERGER are already on the streets with more to follow.

Yeah, thats some strategy......

 

[Phoenix]

First off NO ONE speaks for me!

Second off as a customer you can on this thread refer to me as "MR Piney" as without me and the thousands of Frequent Flyers you would not have a job. You want respect? Show some!!!

I find all of this bickering offensive in light of the stellar accomplishments of Catain Sullenberger.

That's "Sully" to you. After all, you are a frequent flyer.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

The West pilots?? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror. East had pilots furloughed 1500+ deep on the day of the merger, and they have all been offered recall and are still employed to this day, while 103 West pilots who WERE WORKING HERE and BROUGHT A JOB TO THE MERGER are already on the streets with more to follow.

Yeah, thats some strategy......

They might not have been furloughed if the two sides were able to sit down and hash out a fair and equitable seniority arrangement that would have made one seniority list. No. The company is forced to deal with two separate lists. Could have been prevented, but that's what greed does to people.

Later,
Eye

 

[Phoenix]

The West pilots?? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror. East had pilots furloughed 1500+ deep on the day of the merger, and they have all been offered recall and are still employed to this day, while 103 West pilots who WERE WORKING HERE and BROUGHT A JOB TO THE MERGER are already on the streets with more to follow.

Yeah, thats some strategy......

You raise an interesting point but, doing the math, it appears there is something you have left out of the story.

Adding 1,500+ pilots to the whole and then subtracting 103 leaves us with nearly 1,400+ more pilots than at the merger. Is this true? Has the new USAirways added enough planes to their inventory to require and additional 1,400+ pilots on the seniority list to fly them? I don't think so. To my knowledge USAirways has not significantly altered the number of planes from before and after the merger.. indeed, did not the TA stipulate as much?

So then do tell tell what are these 1,400+ pilots doing on the property? Are they sitting around doing nothing yet being paid?

Or perhaps did the majority of these pilots get recalled to empty seats vacated by retiring pilots? Oh... you neglected to mention the retirements.

Now the math is closer to making sense. 🙄

 

[mechclt]

http://usapawatch.com/

Lie. AWA was only in bankruptcy once in the early 90’s. The ATSB loans were being paid on schedule.



Lie. There is no evidence anywhere to prove this. Doug Parker himself has said the AAA would have liquidated within 30 days without the merger. He needs to learn something about accounting. The acquiring entity is charged with all of the merger costs. So with AWA management and yield management. The east was turned around and kept the profits AWA was charged the costs.


I have watched this fight go on and on about who was the buying airline and who was the one that was bought as a member of the IAM east we lost a change of control snapback due to the fact that USAIRWAYS was the buyer in this deal, and there was no group or airline acting in concert to take control of usairways, so if you west pilots would like to think your airline is the buyer then fine the corts did not see it that way mechclt

 

[cleardirect]

http://usapawatch.com/

Lie. AWA was only in bankruptcy once in the early 90’s. The ATSB loans were being paid on schedule.



Lie. There is no evidence anywhere to prove this. Doug Parker himself has said the AAA would have liquidated within 30 days without the merger. He needs to learn something about accounting. The acquiring entity is charged with all of the merger costs. So with AWA management and yield management. The east was turned around and kept the profits AWA was charged the costs.


I have watched this fight go on and on about who was the buying airline and who was the one that was bought as a member of the IAM east we lost a change of control snapback due to the fact that USAIRWAYS was the buyer in this deal, and there was no group or airline acting in concert to take control of usairways, so if you west pilots would like to think your airline is the buyer then fine the corts did not see it that way mechclt


For accounting purposes AWA is considered the aquiring entiry. Therefore AWA gets charged all of the merger costs.

 

[N905TW]

So then do tell tell what are these 1,400+ pilots doing on the property? Are they sitting around doing nothing yet being paid?

Now the math is closer to making sense. 🙄

Of course some of your attrition helped those 1400+ find seats to sit in. But what also has helped is the staffing of all 25 E190 and the 3 ATA 757s, which, of course you remember, were to be shared with the West pilot group.

Keep on grabbing all you can....

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Of course some of your attrition helped those 1400+ find seats to sit in. But what also has helped is the staffing of all 25 E190 and the 3 ATA 757s, which, of course you remember, were to be shared with the West pilot group.

Keep on grabbing all you can....

If you don't play fair the lists will stay separate. I don't blame the East guys they are just protecting the flying they brought to the merger.

Later,
Eye