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US Pilots Labor Thread 1/13-1/20

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Of course some of your attrition helped those 1400+ find seats to sit in. But what also has helped is the staffing of all 25 E190 and the 3 ATA 757s, which, of course you remember, were to be shared with the West pilot group.

Keep on grabbing all you can....

If you acknowledge that the West should not benefit from East retirements, then why do you think they should benefit from planes delivered to the East? Besides we are the only ones helping to save the company because we get paid less than you do.

If ALPA hadn't outsourced the very foundation of the union the merger would be long forgotten already and you would have every opportunity to enjoy new planes. Bickering to each other about what ALPA did to us is pointless.

Sully had three minutes to decide what to do over the Hudson. Lets give the BPR three minutes and call it complete. Whata ya say?
 
January 19 2009 11:02:37
Leonidas Update for January 18th, 2009
Published earlier this week was an opinion piece written by East First Officer, Joe Monda, in which he tries to explain how the East pilots have taken the “high road†in the “seniority squabble.†You can read his “opinion†here. This was a reply to an article published a couple of weeks ago. In case you have not read the article from West First Officer, Patrick O’Neill, you can read that one here and compare the two. Both of these articles were originally published in the Arizona Republic.

The bottom line is this; Mr. Monda completely fails to mention that the combined list was the product of an arbitration process. This process was identical to the thousands of arbitrations which take place each year in that both sides had the full opportunity to present their cases before a neutral. Furthermore, the arbitration decision which Mr. Monda fails to mention (and otherwise complains so loudly about) had more than just the arbitrator deciding the case, but also had two pilots from other airlines assisting Mr. Nicolau. This arrangement of one arbitrator and two “pilot neutrals†was called for by the union merger policy, and that policy was adhered to completely during this process. Finally, this was the East’s second encounter with Mr. Nicolau, as they had used him previously during the Trump Shuttle and US Airways merger. In that merger, the Trump Shuttle pilots argued for a date of hire integration, whereas the US Airways pilots argued for a ratioed integration. When Nicolau ruled, the US Airways pilots got exactly what they asked for: a ratioed integration. It is worth noting that prior to the Trump Shuttle/US Air arbitration, Mr. Nicolau created the seniority list for the FedEx/Flying Tigers merger. In that arbitration he also used a ratio method to integrate the two pilot groups. Simple logic would suggest that, absent a compelling argument otherwise, Mr. Nicolau would be inclined to use a ratio method for the America West/US Air lists as well. That, and in order to comply with the stated goals of the merger policy, it would be necessary in our case. Anyone who bothered to read the policy for himself, or has the faintest notion of “fair and equitable,†would have to admit this.

The East Merger Committee argued for a date of hire list, but in the end Mr. Nicolau and the two pilot neutrals “ratioed†the AWA and US Airways lists to create the award. Not much else can be said other than that there was arbitration, that the arbitration was carried out in the exact same manner as every other arbitration in the past, and that both parties participated in the arbitration process fully, and without objection. Furthermore, it did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that an arbitrator who had twice before combined pilot lists using a ratio formula would likely do it again in this case- especially in light of the disparate condition of the airlines being merged.

What distinguishes this arbitration from all previous arbitrations is the reaction by the leadership (and at that time, most) of the old US Air pilots. It is a common understanding that parties rarely achieve all of their goals in arbitration, and this one was no different. East and West could not agree about how to integrate the list to begin with, so that's why we took our dispute to an arbitrator. The efforts undertaken by the East to evade the award, which continue even today, will probably go down in labor history as the singular most misguided and foolish attempt to abuse the RLA and union democracy. We hope those efforts will not prevail, and with your financial support they will not.

If it were not for our ongoing litigation, Bradford's “tyranny of the majority,†might well become a permanent reality in labor- a result that even he would regret in a future merger with a larger group. The larger group would just be able to “have it their way,†without regard to any policy, contract, or arbitration to which they would have otherwise been bound before Bradford's Frankenstein experiment in democracy proved that none of those things matter anymore- just that your guys have more votes (or money). If USAPA is successful in evading the seniority arbitration, it will likely benefit airline managements as well (and any labor averse management, really), because they too could just chose to change their name to evade the results of any arbitration or contract they found too inconvenient. The fact is that, if USAPA is successful, the longstanding concept of “successor in interest,†will be dead, and everyone in America (except Bradford) will suffer.

What Mr. Monda’s “opinion†truly represents is the absolute cognitive dissonance which pervades the current East leadership. We prefer not to categorize all East pilots with this group, as we know there are many former US Airways pilots who now understand this reality. It does appear, however, that many of the former US Airways pilots are still quite willing to accept some, if not many, of the falsities and half-truths concerning our merger. Why they do this is something we can only speculate about, but we would imagine that this phenomenon is probably described somewhere in the “Clinical Handbook of Psychological Disorders.†In reality, the only logical explanation is that they do this because it is their way to escape the reality of our (East and West) situation: an integrated seniority list exists, and that list is the product of binding arbitration- it simply doesn't look like what they were promised it would, and they are in denial.

It is unfortunate that a sizable group of East pilots still accept the “revisionist history†offered in Mr. Monda's letter as fact. This is a clear example of mass cognitive dissonance and we see the effect of this in Mr. Monda’s letter. What’s alarming to many of us in the West is the ease at which some East pilots continue to substitute manufactured lies for the facts. Mr. Monda’s letter is replete with these substitutions. Let’s take a look at Mr. Monda’s “facts.†Also note that we back our facts with citations to actual documents, whereas Mr. Monda’s facts are completely unverified (and the reason they’re unverified is because they are totally untrue). Mr. Monda says, “The strength of the US Airways franchise was validated in the six post-merger quarterly filings when management separated east and west data.â€

Fact: Net income for AWA was $33.6 million in the first quarter of 2005 and $20.9 million for the second quarter. Accounting practices used later in the merger allocated many merger-related expenses to the west operation. Mr. Monda would be quick to point this out if the situation were reversed.

AWA was on the “brink†of its third bankruptcy.

Fact: AWA had one prior bankruptcy and that took place in 1993, not two. To say that we were on the “brink†of BK is a stretch by anyone’s analysis of the state of the industry in early 2005. What would or would not have happened down the road is open for debate, however there were numerous articles being written at the time by industry analysts with headlines such as “Stick a fork in em. They’re done.†(Referring to the former US Airways.)

The former US Airways had $500 million in financing during its second bankruptcy.

Fact: Where? Show us the documents because the AWA Merger Committee and its staff of professional accountants and analysts found nothing filed with the Bankruptcy Court which indicated anything other than the fact that the old US Airways was probably not going to even make it through the Chapter 11 reorganization. Now, if there was a supposed “$500 million†financing coming through, we find it interesting that the East’s own Merger Committee failed to produce this evidence during the arbitration.

To help ease the East's trip back to reality, we have provided a delectable selection of SEC filings for you to ponder:

SEC_1
SEC_2
SEC_3
SEC_4

The list could go on and on, but you get the idea. Nicolau is not a “senile old man,†as the East self righteously asserted when they didn't get what they wanted. Much to their alarm, the formula he used in our arbitration was similar to what he had used before, and nearly identical to what has been used since, including NWA/Delta. The fact remains that Nicolau was selected by the east pilots in this arbitration. Nicolau SETS THE STANDARD that other arbitrators seek to emulate. The Nicolau list, whether Bradford likes it or not, DEFINES FAIR AND EQUITABLE, and he will not be allowed to shirk his spot therein either.

One last thing. We would like to say to the CREW of AWE 1549:

Captain Sullenberger
First Officer Skiles
Flight Attendant Sheila Dail
Flight Attendant Doreen Welsh
Flight Attendant Donna Dent

No matter what the final report says, JOB WELL DONE. This accident serves to illustrate what is at stake EVERY SINGLE FLIGHT. It is not just the value of the 50 million dollar jet, but the invaluable lives we carry on even the shortest flight. It again shows that the things that unite us far outweigh the things that we think divide us.

And with that thought, we will remind everyone (East and West) that regardless of the name of the union, it will still be comprised of the same people for years yet to come. We need to make the best of our situation TODAY. Our seniority dispute is in the hands of the Honorable Neil Wake right now (because arbitration wasn't good enough), but we need to be working together for everything else.

Thanks for your support,

Leonidas LLC
 
WRONG!

It's Captain Sullenberger as I do not know the man personally or professionally. It's a sign of respect. After all that has transpired, I can't think of a single soul more worthy of being addressed as Captain.


And I can't think of a Frequent Flyer more worthy of being addressed as Mr. than you.

And come to think of it I can't think of one that isn't equally deserving of the courtesy.
 
The problem is Nicolau failed to produce a "fair and equitable" seniority list. Fighting to force the use of the Nicolau list is sociopathic behavior which will continue to produce negative consequences for all USAirways pilots. The solution will come when the West pilots are ready to become productive members of our USAirway's pilot family and start fighting for the common good instead of simply their own self interest.

underpants.
 
why do you think they should benefit from planes delivered to the East?


Lets remember the facts here and not the BS or revisionist history.

The only reason the NEW aircraft aquired post-merger were placed on the East is because it was the East certificate that was to remain. They were not placed on the East side so only East pilots could benefit from them.

There was also language in the TA that would have placed them on the WEST certificate if it had been determined that the AWA certificate would remain.
 
The problem is Nicolau failed to produce a "fair and equitable" seniority list. Fighting to force the use of the Nicolau list is sociopathic behavior which will continue to produce negative consequences for all USAirways pilots. The solution will come when the West pilots are ready to become productive members of our USAirway's pilot family and start fighting for the common good instead of simply their own self interest.

underpants.


Captain Underpants has the strangest logic ever heard, rather sociopathic. I want what I want and the those who get in the way of my way of thinking are sociopathic. Who is the sociopath Captain?
 
The problem is Nicolau failed to produce a "fair and equitable" seniority list.....

The solution will come when the West pilots are ready to become productive members of our USAirway's pilot family and start fighting for the common good instead of simply their own self interest.

The arbitrator says you're wrong.

The two pilot neutrals say you're wrong.

The Delta arbitrator says you're wrong.

The solution will come when enough East pilots realize you're wrong.
 
The arbitrator says you're wrong.

The two pilot neutrals say you're wrong.

The Delta arbitrator says you're wrong.

The solution will come when enough East pilots realize you're wrong.

Oh well...guess they'll have to keep two seniority lists then. From what I've read the East pilots' contract calls for an end to their pay freeze on January 1, 2010 -- going back to 2005 pay rates is quite a raise from where they are at now. Again, that's their list. As long as the West holds on to the Nic list the East pilots have no incentive to negotiate a joint contract. Of course USAPA represents the West pilots, so I guess they'll work on the contract you have now. Legally this stuff could go on for years and years.

Later,
Eye
 
Captain Underpants has the strangest logic ever heard, rather sociopathic. I want what I want and the those who get in the way of my way of thinking are sociopathic. Who is the sociopath Captain?

L1011,

Sorry to dissapoint you but I would like to see a peaceful fair and equitable seniority integration...nothing more, nothing less. Those pursuing forcing the Nicolau list or Date of Hire without protective conditions and restrictions are engaging in destructive anti-social behavior. Solutions to the problem can certainly be found by reasonable men and women.

underpants.
 
Oh well...guess they'll have to keep two seniority lists then. From what I've read the East pilots' contract calls for an end to their pay freeze on January 1, 2010 -- going back to 2005 pay rates is quite a raise from where they are at now. Again, that's their list. As long as the West holds on to the Nic list the East pilots have no incentive to negotiate a joint contract. Of course USAPA represents the West pilots, so I guess they'll work on the contract you have now. Legally this stuff could go on for years and years.

Later,
Eye

Eye,

You're right. Separate operations looks like the path of least resistance..... there is no way to argue separate is not fair and equitable.

underpants.
 
Eye,

You're right. Separate operations looks like the path of least resistance..... there is no way to argue separate is not fair and equitable.

underpants.


No way to argue?

You underestimate the creativity of a lawyer that bills $400 an hour. :lol:
 
There is no reason for usapa to post these articles. The first was an opinion in the Arizona Republic with a limited readership. The next from Monda was a rebuttal. Again to the same readership.
Are you embarrassed what O'Neill wrote? Should not there be free discussion? Do you just want to limit the discussion to mostly west pilots?

By usapa sending it to all of the pilots it continues to further divide the groups. This, after a week with the lowest tensions since usapa took over. Other then cranking up the tensions again what was USAPA’s point in doing this?
Since USAPA took no stand, I would assume it is to educate the readership on opposing views.

Monda has the right to have his opinion published. Usapa should not have used it as propaganda. Next usapa should have at least been honest they do have some responsibility to but out correct information. By publishing this piece they perpetuate the lies started during the arbitration.
Posting only one-side information would be considered "propaganda". Posting a "back and forth" is hardly propaganda.

Lie. AWA was only in bankruptcy once in the early 90’s. The ATSB loans were being paid on schedule.
The ATSB loans were not being paid on "schedule", at least the schedule laid on by the ATSB. There was a lot of concern by the ATSB that they might have to call those loans.

Lie. There is no evidence anywhere to prove this. Doug Parker himself has said the AAA would have liquidated within 30 days without the merger. He needs to learn something about accounting. The acquiring entity is charged with all of the merger costs. So with AWA management and yield management. The east was turned around and kept the profits AWA was charged the costs.
Sorry, you are pretty ignorant as to "mergers". and accounting. Since HP never "acquired" anything, your whining is moot.

Imagine your union brother suing brother pilots for millions of dollars because they disagree with being screwed by your union.
They are not being sued for "disagreeing". They are being sued for the manner in which the stated "brother pilots" expressed their disagreement.

Does that moral high ground include disregarding binding arbitration? Does that moral high ground include trying to have west pilots terminated? Does that moral high ground include suing fellow pilots? Does that moral high ground include continuing the divide between the two groups by publishing lies?
The moral high ground is held by those with integrity. Binding arbitration is but a piece of negotiation, something that can change when the players change. There is a consequence to not paying dues just as there is one for harassing "brother pilots", termination. USAPA published two opposing points of view. I agree, they should not have published O'Neill's lies.
 
Therefore AWA gets charged all of the merger costs.
No. The combined carrier gets charged for all the costs, not any of the separate entities. The fact that accounting was localized to PHX was (I presume) due to tax advantages. Agreements made about accounting certainly cannot be used to "prove" acquisition.
 
The problem is Nicolau failed to produce a "fair and equitable" seniority list. Fighting to force the use of the Nicolau list is sociopathic behavior which will continue to produce negative consequences for all USAirways pilots. The solution will come when the West pilots are ready to become productive members of our USAirway's pilot family and start fighting for the common good instead of simply their own self interest.

underpants.

Capt. UP;
What an odd coincidence! I was just thinking that the Nicolau list is a fair and equitable list and that if the AAA pilots wanted something else they should have been more flexible at the NC table during the list negotiations. We were left with no other choice but FINAL and BINDING arbitration by one of the most experienced arbitrators in the USA.

The solution will now come after Judge Wake makes a determination on the lawsuit, and if adjudicated in our favor what damages may be assessed.

The West pilots remain productive here in PHX and LAS (while sadly without 104 pilots that had jobs prior to this acquisition). Please do keep all of the pilots here in the USA that have lost their jobs during these difficult times in your thoughts and prayers.

Have a wonderful day!!

PS Informed is empowered. Reading the pre-"merger" statistics of AAA and AWA, the transcripts of the arbitration, etc. will truly give you the actual picture of the events that have transpired.
 
My complaint about usapa sending out the two articles. What did it accomplish? Did it create unity or did that e-mail continue the war? What was usapa trying to do?


Sorry, you are pretty ignorant as to "mergers". and accounting. Since HP never "acquired" anything, your whining is moot.

Please educate yourself and others. No whining, stating facts. According to the annual report. America West was the acquiring company. Another fact. Mr. Monda was incorrect about. The $500 million came AFTER the acquisition. September 27, 2005. US Airways had not lined up the financing.

Page 44 annual report 2005.It is still on the US Airways web site investor relations.

The merger has been accounted for as a reverse acquisition using the purchase method of accounting. As a result, although the merger was structured such that America West Holdings became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group, America West Holdings was treated as the acquiring company for accounting purposes due to the following factors: (1) America West Holdings' stockholders received the largest share of US Airways Group's common stock in the merger in comparison to unsecured creditors of US Airways Group; (2) America West Holdings received a larger number of designees to the board of directors; and (3) America West Holdings' Chairman and Chief Executive Officer prior to the merger became the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the combined company. As a result of the reverse acquisition, the 2005 consolidated statement of operations for the new US Airways Group presented in this report includes the results of America West Holdings for the 269 days through September 27, 2005 and
consolidated results of US Airways Group for the 96 days from September 27, 2006 through December 31, 2005. The results of operations for fiscal years 2004 and 2003 are those of America West Holdings.

Emergence and Merger Transactions
The New Equity Investments Ì On September 27, 2005, US Airways Group received new equity
investments of $565 million in the aggregate from ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. (""ACE''); Par Investment Partners, L.P. (""Par''); Peninsula Investment Partners, L.P. (""Peninsula''); a group of investors under the management of Wellington Management Company, LLP (""Wellington''); Tudor Proprietary Trading, L.L.C. and certain investors advised by Tudor Investment Corp. (collectively referred to as ""Tudor''); and Eastshore Aviation, LLC (""Eastshore''). In connection with the equity investments, each of the equity investors received an option to purchase additional shares at $15.00 per share. Par purchased the options granted to ACE and Eastshore, and each option holder exercised the first two-thirds of its option on September 28, 2005, for aggregate proceeds to US Airways Group of approximately $75 million. On October 13, 2005, each of the equity investors exercised the remaining portion of its option for aggregate proceeds to US Airways Group of approximately $38 million. Proceeds from these new equity investments,
including the option exercises, totaled approximately $678 million.


The moral high ground is held by those with integrity. Binding arbitration is but a piece of negotiation, something that can change when the players change. There is a consequence to not paying dues just as there is one for harassing "brother pilots", termination. USAPA published two opposing points of view. I agree, they should not have published O'Neill's lies.

I pointed out Monda's lies. Please be so kind to point to Mr. O'Neill's lies as you say. Prove that he lied. Just because it does not fit into you fantasy world does not make then lies.

At the time of the merger, 1,751 of the 5,000 East-based US Airways pilots were laid off.

Is this a lie?

So, when the arbitrator came back with a decision that provided US Airways' Eastern pilots with the 517 most senior spots on the integrated seniority list,
Is this a lie?

The middle spots were a ratio of pilots from both airlines, based upon a formula that the arbitrator and two neutral pilots from other airlines felt best represented fairness for all.

Is this a lie?

Date-of-hire seniority puts the majority of the former America West pilots at the bottom of the list, even below those who were unemployed when the merger took place.

Do you think that this is a lie?
 
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