US Pilots Labor Thread 1/6- 1/12

[Richard]

Continue the pilots' discussion here.

Thank you.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

DFR lawsuits against a union fail 93% of the time. In the unlikely event USAPA loses the DFR case they may be required to negotiate a seniority solution with the West pilots instead of the company. USAPA and a West merger committee may be ordered back to Wye river type negotiations if they lose the DFR case.

Damages are almost never won in DFR cases and there wouldn't be any as long as operations remain separate or fenced as USAPA has proposed. To win cash damages the West would have to prove that the East pilots would have voted to use the Nicolau award in a joint contract. They would also have to prove that the Nicolau award is inequitable meaning they would have received a windfall if Nicolau had been implemented. Trying to collect cash damages is trying to collect the windfall which the West claims does not exist and was not allowed anyway by ALPA merger policy. The West pilots are not any worse off now than if AWA had remained independent. The correlation is not 100% but close since the West operation has remained a separate operation since the merger and has mirrored the performance of PHX and LAS.

I doubt the court would be foolish enough to try to force use of the Nicolau list as settling the seniority dispute. That would just start World War III and eliminate any chance for a single contract or integrated operations. USAPA is trying to find a seniority solution that is fair to both sides. That may be impossible if the court places restrictions on USAPA's bargaining authority. The West could very well end up much worse off if they win the DFR lawsuit. The East pilots already have date of hire seniority and a fence and will have higher pay rates when the LOA 93 pay freeze ends on 12/31/09.

Underpants.

Snapback, cool!

Later,
Eye

 

[luvthe9]

AmWest pilots get short end of straw
2 commentsJan. 6, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
In a world of utter economic chaos and moral bankruptcy, the situation of pilot seniority as a result of the merger of America West with US Airways is a microcosm of the overall problem.

If you don't like the loan you agreed to, just refuse to pay it or ask for a mulligan. If you made bad loans, ask the government to bail you out. If you don't like the outcome of the binding arbitration you entered willingly, just change the rules and stick it to your fellow man.

Unfortunately for me and my 1,700 fellow former America West pilots, this sort of moral bankruptcy has affected us at the very core. It is shocking to believe that intelligent, grown men and women can enter legally binding arbitration and then, when one side doesn't like the arbitrators' decision, feel perfectly righteous in refusing to honor it.

Through trickery, deceit, intimidation and mutiny, the former US Airways pilots have been successfully subverting the arbitration with total disregard for the arbitrator and for us.

Our story covers nearly four years, thousands of hours of deliberation, mediation, arbitration, disenfranchisement of our union and now, a bitter legal battle to protect our very jobs.

At the time of the merger, 1,751 of the 5,000 East-based US Airways pilots were laid off. In contrast, every America West pilot was gainfully employed and our airline was hiring and adding planes and routes.

America West had weathered the aftermath of 9/11, paid back its loans with interest and its pilots were now enjoying the rewards for hard work and sacrifices they made to help the airline succeed. We had every expectation our jobs would be protected, but we were also realistic enough to know that there would be compromises to make it fair to all.

So, when the arbitrator came back with a decision that provided US Airways' Eastern pilots with the 517 most senior spots on the integrated seniority list, my fellow pilots and I were a bit disappointed. But, we had agreed that his decision would be final and we were willing to accept this slight because the bottom 1,751 spots on the list were assigned to the US Airways pilots who were laid off at the time of the merger (thus, not actually representing a job with the company at that time). The middle spots were a ratio of pilots from both airlines, based upon a formula that the arbitrator and two neutral pilots from other airlines felt best represented fairness for all.

The Eastern pilots had and have a different idea of fairness. They didn't like the decision, so they used their greater numbers to form a new union, forcing us to pay dues to an organization that has as its rallying cry, "Date of hire is the only way to determine seniority."

Date-of-hire seniority puts the majority of the former America West pilots at the bottom of the list, even below those who were unemployed when the merger took place. This exposes us unfairly to the brunt of any downsizing that current economic conditions may require. Imagine the irony of paying dues to a group that wants to destroy you. Do so, and you dig your own grave; don't do it, and risk being fired for failure to adhere to union rules.

As of today, more than 200 of the Western pilots are laid off or have been demoted, while every one of the Eastern pilots who were laid off before the merger and accepted recall are gainfully employed. Every day, I wait to hear who among my friends and colleagues will lose his or her livelihood, home, car, or, in the worst cases, family. It appears that there is nothing left to do but wait for the courts to decide if there will be justice.


Patrick O'Neill is a first officer with US Airways. He lives in Goodyear.


WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Well, First Officer O'Neill, even if ALPA had indeed successfully fended off the challenge by USAPA, what do you think would be different? The Nicolau list would certainly not have been in effect since it required a joint contract ratified independendly by each pilot group. Absent that, the company would have furloughed according to the Transistion Agreement. That is essentially the case now (grievances notwithstanding.) Had things gone completely your way, your buddies would still be on furlough and the east pilots who are working now would still be working.

So, what EXACTLY is your beef anyway?

 

[nostradamus]

Date of hire of pilot in editorial, August 16, 2004. This pilot was in ground school when the wheels were in motion on this merger.

 

[cleardirect]

DFR lawsuits against a union fail 93% of the time. In the unlikely event USAPA loses the DFR case they may be required to negotiate a seniority solution with the West pilots instead of the company. USAPA and a West merger committee may be ordered back to Wye river type negotiations if they lose the DFR case.

Captain,

The west only has to win this one. Long odds yes but the hard part was getting into court. That was the big hurdle. If the west wins. The seniority negotiations have already been done. That was what the Nicolau arbitration was all about. There is no do over. The court would be very unlikely to disregard binding arbitration.

Beside who would USAPA negotiate with? The NMB has declared us a single carrier. USAPA is the legal bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots as USAPA repeatedly points out. There is no one to bargain with. There is no legal entity that can negotiate for the west. So no Wye river mess or delay.

Damages are almost never won in DFR cases and there wouldn't be any as long as operations remain separate or fenced as USAPA has proposed. To win cash damages the West would have to prove that the East pilots would have voted to use the Nicolau award in a joint contract. They would also have to prove that the Nicolau award is inequitable meaning they would have received a windfall if Nicolau had been implemented. Trying to collect cash damages is trying to collect the windfall which the West claims does not exist and was not allowed anyway by ALPA merger policy. The West pilots are not any worse off now than if AWA had remained independent. The correlation is not 100% but close since the West operation has remained a separate operation since the merger and has mirrored the performance of PHX and LAS.

That is the entire point of this exercise. Because the east has delayed and demanded separate ops the west has been hurt. If the east had accepted the list and bargained in good faith back in June 2007 we would most likely have a contract and integrated ops. Therefore the furloughs and downgrades would have gone by the arbitrated list. So the east demand for separate ops is what is going to cost the east.

I believe that you have your logic backwards. Both sides agreed to arbitration and what ever came from that. A neutral determined what was fair and not a windfall. USAPA is the one trying to change the rules so they are the ones that are going to have to prove the DOH is not a windfall for the east. Read the transcripts. This is what the judge said during the hearing. I believe that the judge sees a DOH list as a windfall for the east.

THE COURT: Isn't the proof of the futility what I just received last night, which is USAPA's September 30
proposed seniority list, which is a 100 percent victory for the East Pilots and a 100 percent defeat for the West Pilots? What more futility do you need than that proof that they have been negotiating as they campaigned to defeat the ALPA merger policy as implemented and have a different priority system that
entirely favors the East Pilot to the complete detriment of the West Pilots?

Separate ops have been a windfall for the east. That will be fairly easy to prove. All that has been written by the east proves that they had no desire and avoided negotiating in good faith and demanded separate ops. Contrary to the transition agreement.

I doubt the court would be foolish enough to try to force use of the Nicolau list as settling the seniority dispute. That would just start World War III and eliminate any chance for a single contract or integrated operations. USAPA is trying to find a seniority solution that is fair to both sides. That may be impossible if the court places restrictions on USAPA's bargaining authority. The West could very well end up much worse off if they win the DFR lawsuit. The East pilots already have date of hire seniority and a fence and will have higher pay rates when the LOA 93 pay freeze ends on 12/31/09.

Underpants.

The court has a wide range of latitude in finding a remedy. The first step involves implementing the agreement made by both sides. Otherwise the entire concept of final and binding comes into question. What happens if the company decides to ignore the final and binding arbitration that USAPA just won regarding the $25 million for the long term disability? What then? The company does not like the outcome so they just say no. The list is done WW III is in progress. The DFR law suit will be signing of a treaty.

USAPA is trying to find a seniority solution that is fair to both sides.

That is an absolute false statement. USAPA has not, will not ever looked for a fair list. Since it’s inception DOH was the only way they were going to integrate the two sides. There was no negotiation, no meeting no compromise of any sort. DOH was it. That places 85% of the west below Dean Colello the senior furloughed pilot from the east. Please do not quote the conditions and restrictions. Those are less then zero protecting the west.

Yes I have read them I know what they say. No protection what so ever. They in no way come close to even slightly blunting the devastation the DOH does to the west.

No I think that the west will be just fine if we win the DFR. All we are asking for is what we agreed to. The results of arbitration. Since the east has delayed and failed to represent the west damages for that delay and the unfairly furloughed and downgraded west pilots.

Thank you for confirming our DFR. The east has what they want. DOH and separate ops. That was not the agreement. The company did not do this merger just to give the east what you want. The company wants an integrated airline.

Interesting provision in the contract if it automatically snaps back to the old wages. I do not see where it says that the rates will return to the old ones. It says they are frozen. My understanding would be that the yearly step pay would be frozen. No increase say from 2008 to 2009. Since most of the east is over the 15 year mark no pay raise at all. I believe that that only thing that is going to change on 12/31/09 ( )
Nothing!!! We are already in contract negotiations. The company did not want to do section 6 with the west before. They will not want to do separate section 6 with the east. Plus this trial should be over long before December 2009.

The rates of pay specified in Section 3 of the Agreement, as
modified by the Restructuring Agreement, will be revised as
follows:
1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/3 1/09.
2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18.0%
3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section
3(F) and Section 18©, by 18.0% for transoceanic trips;
eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.
4. Pay all flying at day rate.

If the judge rules that Nicolau is the only list to be used we should be able to move forward with the contract together. That leaves the next bug hurdle. Getting management to agree to our demands.

 

[nostradamus]

Latest america west pilot update quote

"We at Leonidas are clueless as to why McIlvenna and AWAPPA were served subpoenas, as neither has had anything to do with the formation of Leonidas, LLC or with the litigation we commenced this past summer. The only connection between AWAPPA and Leonidas was a loose association soon after USAPA was legitimized by the NMB, and that loose association ended rather quickly as we were unable to agree on the fundamental legal strategy by which to enforce the seniority rights of all US Airways pilots."

army of leonidas and awappa are america west pilots infighting groups. leonidas is trying to distance them selves from awappa due to their criminal conduct.

Bottom line, they are trying to use an old strategy of good cop, bad cop. Unfortunatly they combine to appear like the Keystone cops .

 

[cleardirect]

Date of hire of pilot in editorial, August 16, 2004. This pilot was in ground school when the wheels were in motion on this merger.

And that has what to do with the truthfulness and accuracy of the story how?

 

[nostradamus]

And that has what to do with the truthfulness and accuracy of the story how?

I report facts, the reader makes their own decision on the validity of the posts and posters.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Separate ops have been a windfall for the east. That will be fairly easy to prove.

Hmmm. Well if separate ops has been a windfall for the east, why are you guys constantly haranguing us about "how's life on LOA 93"? Most east pilots have been compensated far less than their west counterparts under separate ops, and with all the posting that has gone on here, it will be quite easy to show that as a group the east has not enjoyed any windfall thus far. Thank you all for poking the LOA 93 stick in our eye so consistently and so often.

 

[electricjet98]

Hmmm. Well if separate ops has been a windfall for the east, why are you guys constantly haranguing us about "how's life on LOA 93"? Most east pilots have been compensated far less than their west counterparts under separate ops, and with all the posting that has gone on here, it will be quite easy to show that as a group the east has not enjoyed any windfall thus far. Thank you all for poking the LOA 93 stick in our eye so consistently and so often.

You have a job. Absent the meger AAA would have been liquidated. That was the plan that SWA, DAL, JBLU and others were all counting on.

 

[nostradamus]

You have a job. Absent the meger AAA would have been liquidated. That was the plan that SWA, DAL, JBLU and others were all counting on.

nuetral counterpoint

 

[nostradamus]

I do not enjoy strawberries.

 

[Crzipilot]

As Jim had said in prev. post. Some one might want to do some digging in some negotiating notes to see exactly the intent of the rates being frozen through '09. As during the combined restructuring, LOA 84 I believe, the book rates were reset and the Parity reviews were done away with.

LOA 93

1. Freeze current rates effective 5/01/04 through 12/31/09.

2. Reduce rates as frozen by 18.0%

3. Reduce International pay override, as stated in Section
3(F) and Section 18©, by 18.0% for transoceanic trips;
eliminate international override for non-transoceanic trips.

4. Pay all flying at day rate.


If frozen means simply freeze the computation of our rates until the end of '09. Here is the language from LOA 84 that reset the "book rates"

Revisions to Pay Rates [Restructuring pg 1]
The hourly pay rates contained in Section 3 of the Agreement will be revised as follows:
• The hourly pay rates in effect on June 30, 2002, will be known as the Book Rates. The
actual rates will each be reduced on the Effective Date to the rates that were in effect on
April 30, 2001. The parity review scheduled for May 1, 2003, and Letter of Agreement
47, as amended, will be canceled.
• Eliminate the LOA #61 1% lump sum increase scheduled for 2003.
• Hourly pay rates will be increased by a compounded 1% effective on May 1, 2003;
May 1, 2004; May 1, 2005; and May 1, 2006; and further increased by a compounded
2% effective on May 1, 2007 and May 1, 2008; and 3% on May 1 of the succeeding
status quo period (i.e., the period past the Agreement amendable date).
• Covered Pilots to receive override of 9% (including seniors, except for line check
instructors who will receive an override of 10% per hour when performing training).
• Pay Covered Pilots according to the equipment they are training on.
• A330 equipment to be compensated at pre-parity rate of $205.85/hour (12th year
captain rate/widebody LOA).
• A320 and A321 equipment to be paid at Group 2 rates.
Further Revisions to Pay Rates [LOA 84 Attachment A pg 1]
The actual hourly rates of pay to be paid to all pilots under the Agreement will
in each year be less than or greater than the actual hourly rates of pay specified
under the Restructuring Agreement (i.e., the actual hourly rates as increased
each May 1) by the following percentage amounts. These percentages are not
cumulative, but are in each instance an adjustment of the hourly rate of pay that
would otherwise have been paid under the Restructuring Agreement in the
applicable pay period. Hence, in each year there will be two actual hourly rates
of pay applicable to each position: the rate in effect from January 1 through
April 30 and the rate in effect from May 1 through December 31.
YEAR PERCENTAGE CHANGE TO APPLICABLE
RESTRUCTURING AGREEMENT RATES
OF PAY
2003 (8.0%)
2004 (6.5%)
2005 (5.0%)
2006 0.0% No Reduction
2007 2.0%
2008 2.0%
2009 and beyond As per Restructuring Agreement


And there was a chart, but don't think it will copy over so here are what the 12th year rates were projected to be at 5/08, and I would imagine 3% increase each year there after. So if rates become unfrozen, they would snap back somewhere around to this level?

Capt:
330 - 227.32
Group 1 - 205.38
Group 2 - 178.34

F/O
330 - 155.26
Group 1 - 140.27
Group 2 - 121.80


Now of course, if we are dependant on ALPA negotiating notes, I'd have a feeling those would come up missing, or unreadable, or something.........

 

[cleardirect]

nuetral counterpoint

Not that any it has any bearing on our situation. Here is what that arbitrator had to say. Should be a good argument in court.

That the date of hire approach has been adopted by other unionized groups in both companies is, in and of itself, by no means dispositive ; the facts and relative equities of each of the affected groups ultimately are what will determine a given outcome.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
October 29, 2008 - Preliminary Injunction Hearing

MR. SEHAM
If you look at every other major employee group on this property, the dispatchers, the flight attendants, the mechanics, the stock employees, they are all going through a
pure date of hire.

THE COURT: That's irrelevant. I mean, things are different from pilots than other groups.

I believe that this statement is what tipped the scale in favor of DOH. The east contract being what it is may have tipped the scale the other way for the pilots. The east is going to see the most significant gains from any new contract. About 80-85% of those gains.

Most meaningful are the gains realized by West Dispatchers when operating under the US Airways labor agreement. It is, by most measures, the more generous document of the two. According to the record, AWA Dispatchers, prior to the merger, were the lowest paid among major carriers and worked the greatest number of annual hours Following implementation of a transition agreement, work hours for AWA Dispatchers will be cut by 133 hours per year. Work days will be reduced from 10 to 8 hours.24 The East contract includes a profit sharing plan in addition to the 401(K) profit sharing; the West agreement has none. Wage rates under the U.S. Airways cba are more generous.