US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[HPearlyretiree]

All the east guys wanted was what they brought to the merger - the attrition. The NIC took that away. Simple.
There is no chest-thumping about wanting what the west has, or will have, only about getting the seats that will be vacated by east retiring pilots.
That's it.
USAPA was formed because all of the east pilots knew that staying with ALPA would get them screwed - again.

All the east guys wanted was DOH and to be able to walk all over the West, who they see as being somewhat less than what they are. Too bad the West fights back and stands up for itself. USAPA was formed as a way to escape from an agreement that was made in good faith.

 

[cleardirect]

You feel better now that you've stolen jobs that didn't belong to you for the past two years?

Disgusting.

Everyone knew from the start that USAPA was only about sticking it to the West in any shape, form, or way imaginable.

Don't worry, you and the rest of the AFO club will get yours in the end.

Not just trying to screw the west. Any other pilot group that the east comes across. Example, the last couple of times with UAL. Ask the next UAL pilot you see what they think of east pilots and the way they handled the last attempted merger.

 

[Freebird]

Not just trying to screw the west. Any other pilot group that the east comes across. Example, the last couple of times with UAL. Ask the next UAL pilot you see what they think of east pilots and the way they handled the last attempted merger.

Had a UAL J/S the other day. He said he hoped it didnt happen, because of the East pilots...

 

[Poug Darker]

Not to mention that the Nic did NOT take away East attrition.

Is there some reason why 2:1 ratio (East to West) is so difficult to grasp? Would you please explain how a 2 to 1 ratio of seniority = no East upgrades? I'd understand the concept if it was 2 West to 1 East... but that's not the case.

Again it boils down to the 'I don't want him to take my job... but I'm happy to take his' argument. You can't stomach even one guy going in between the other 2 East guys but you wonder why folks are fighting tooth and nail fight an even worse fate at the hands of DOH?

Ahem. The Nic most certainly does take east attrition away from east pilots. It makes a big difference in what equipment can be held. The potential financial loss is very great.
I did not say that "2 to 1 ratio of seniority = no East upgrades". But I do say that the way the Nic is structured, it prohibits east guys that have been waiting a long time for a senior seat from getting there, allowing a west guy with less LOS to step ahead.
Unacceptable.

 

[HP2USFA]

Ahem. The Nic most certainly does take east attrition away from east pilots. It makes a big difference in what equipment can be held. The potential financial loss is very great.
I did not say that "2 to 1 ratio of seniority = no East upgrades". But I do say that the way the Nic is structured, it prohibits east guys that have been waiting a long time for a senior seat from getting there, allowing a west guy with less LOS to step ahead.
Unacceptable.

It prohibits some guys from upgrading and only if west folks choose to move out east to take the position. Let's at least get that part correct. Perhaps a few less broad generalizations would make it easier to avoid misquotes.

I appreciate that those guys find that a bitter pill to swallow. With the utter stagnation in the FA ranks, it's easy to appreciate how a lack of upwards mobility sucks. But on the other hand without this merger none of those guys would have upgraded and as unacceptable as it is to them to have a west pilot take their upgrade it should be as equally unacceptable to take theirs.

 

[N905TW]

There is no chest-thumping about wanting what the west has, or will have, only about getting the seats that will be vacated by east retiring pilots.
That's it.

That's it? Really?

How come this wasn't part of your strategy during negotiations? How about during Mediation? What about during the arbitration? How about weeks after the arbitration concluded, when your group was told to come back with something workable because there was no way you were getting Date of Hire?

No, in fact, Easties wanted it all, and wanted the West to pay for it.

Please stop trying to rewrite history. The pilots of America West are not responsible for the dismal career that US East pilots had in the past 20 years.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How come this wasn't part of ...

Because the claim of "That's all we wanted" is exactly what you say - revisionist history. The NC initially stated their goal of "protecting the widebody flying and attrition" and were threatened with recall for not insisting on DOH. Now that the "all or nothing" yielded only "nothing", there's all this blather about "We only wanted _____, what's unreasonable about that?"

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Ahem. The Nic most certainly does take east attrition away from east pilots. It makes a big difference in what equipment can be held. The potential financial loss is very great.
I did not say that "2 to 1 ratio of seniority = no East upgrades". But I do say that the way the Nic is structured, it prohibits east guys that have been waiting a long time for a senior seat from getting there, allowing a west guy with less LOS to step ahead.
Unacceptable.

Except that you will accept it when a new CBA is ratified, unless you plan to leave US over this issue. Your "unacceptable" stance is going to end up costing you significant amounts of money with nothing to show for this intransigence in return.

 

[Pi brat]

Not to mention that the Nic did NOT take away East attrition.

Is there some reason why 2:1 ratio (East to West) is so difficult to grasp? Would you please explain how a 2 to 1 ratio of seniority = no East upgrades? I'd understand the concept if it was 2 West to 1 East... but that's not the case.

Again it boils down to the 'I don't want him to take my job... but I'm happy to take his' argument. You can't stomach even one guy going in between the other 2 East guys but you wonder why folks are fighting tooth and nail fight an even worse fate at the hands of DOH?

I'm curious. I thought you were a F/A, what makes you an authority on the Nic award?

 

[HP2USFA]

LOL... I'm no more an authority than anyone else here on this board, nor do I elude to being one with my posting. But it doesn't take an authority to do simple math, pay attention to information provided. It works for most of us here - I'm no exception.

Like it or not this debacle has bled over into almost every facet of this company. It stopped being 'pilot only' quite a long long time ago. While my seniority isn't affected by the outcome, my ability to vote on my own contract is. We're all being held hostage by this mess... not just you guys up front.

 

[Pi brat]

LOL... I'm no more an authority than anyone else here on this board, nor do I elude to being one with my posting. But it doesn't take an authority to do simple math, pay attention to information provided. It works for most of us here - I'm no exception.

Like it or not this debacle has bled over into almost every facet of this company. It stopped being 'pilot only' quite a long long time ago. While my seniority isn't affected by the outcome, my ability to vote on my own contract is. We're all being held hostage by this mess... not just you guys up front.

That's it? No ties to other interested parties? Like I said, just curious, most F/As tune this out.

We are not holding any other groups contract hostage, take control of your own destiny.

 

[HP2USFA]

Yes, that's it.

I said this in the Merger thread, but I'll repeat it here. I'd love to be able to break from the pilots. We at the former HP haven't been with our pilots for quite some time. It's been debated and debated and debated but unfortunately those in the majority don't see the need and would rather ride this out. But then again they're also making a great deal more an hour. So unfortunately, by extension, you are. I'd appreciate it though if you'd be kind enough to bend the ear of the next senior gal you fly with and whisper sweet nothings about the benefits of breaking with the 'me too' clause.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the United States. PHL is #6. I'm not sure I'd classify PHX as a secondary hub.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli

I have no doubt that the City of Phoenix is #5, and the City of Philadelphia is #6. But I would wager that the population of the metropolitan area of Philadelphia blows metro Phoenix clean out of the water. Or sandbox, if you prefer. It would not surprise me if metro Philly has more people than the entire state of Arizona.

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, that's it.

I said this in the Merger thread, but I'll repeat it here. I'd love to be able to break from the pilots. We at the former HP haven't been with our pilots for quite some time. It's been debated and debated and debated but unfortunately those in the majority don't see the need and would rather ride this out. But then again they're also making a great deal more an hour. So unfortunately, by extension, you are. I'd appreciate it though if you'd be kind enough to bend the ear of the next senior gal you fly with and whisper sweet nothings about the benefits of breaking with the 'me too' clause.

I talk to a fairly senior one every day that does not want to be tied to pilots on most of the contract, but wants to be paired together. Not to fly with her favorite, but because she has done it both ways and finds ours best.

I just talked to a west F/A that said "tell your F/As not to give up the fight to stay with paired crews", so I guess you will need to talk to your own. That one thing does not prevent a new contract.

 

[A320 Driver]

OK...I'll accept the Nic and vote for any contract you like. Just add one little fence that West pilots stay in the West and East pilots stay in East bases.

Done deal...OK?

Driver B)