US Pilots Thread for the week 9/14-9/21.

[ableoneable]

Why don't you read the arbitrator's award in the case of the dispatchers? See what he thought of the argument you are making. He wasn't even an octogenerian to boot. Of course in your mind pilots are different that dispatchers or any other unionized group with a specialized skill.

Your pilot neutral thought your case was garbage, our neutral thought it was garbage and an arbitrator, whom by all accounts of those who have dealt with him is as sharp as a tack, thought that your case was garbage and your response is that I should look at a completely different arbitration?

Every case turns on its own facts. Substituting the facts of different cases into the pilot arbitration is a specious argument at best and worthless spitballing at its base.

 

[Res Judicata]

My belief structures' based on the concept that trade unionism MUST have time worked within it's essential valutations of/for any members, to even exist on any functional level. You disagree, and here we are...

The only problem with this opinion, and the reality of how USAPA was formed is this: It's Illegal.

I know you hate to think about it, but you and all your USAPA flag waving "unionists" are clearly on the wrong side of the law.

a request for Preliminary Injunction was filed today, (partially posted here already). Read it. I can't wait for USAPAs "Ministry" of (UNCHALLENGED) communications to issue an edict from Seeham declaring this, "without merit".

Good Luck...I know. YAWN STRETCH YAWN!!!

 

[ableoneable]

Well..there's a minor breathrough.

As per your assigning me equally brain-dead fantasies of "career expectations"...I've previously noted seeing several mergers...even you must know better than to imagine I've the least notions of 'career expectations" fantasies having even the tiniest validity...or any worth at all. Well...maybe you don't really yet understand the inherent absurdity/insanity in even the very term "career exectations"...Give it enough time and you will. "Career expectations" are entirely fantasized constructs suitable only for children playing during recess....and perhaps newlyweds as well 😉

I'll give you "career expectations", as personally seen over the course of many years:
1) PSA..Wow!..My dream airline!..I'm going to run an MD-80 around, live near friends and family, and have a great time with wonderful people.
2) USAir comes along...scratch plan #1 above 😉
3) Piedmont is merged in...things change yet again.
4) Looks like it's marry up with United time...Ooops!...Just kidding!
5) Looks like it's tied to AWA time...Yuch!!...Oh well/etc
6) Delta's being brought into the picture....Ooops!..just kidding again.
7) United's back...again...Not

Shall we play this silly "career expectations" game some more? 😉

My belief structures' based on the concept that trade unionism MUST have time worked within it's essential valutations of/for any members, to even exist on any functional level. You disagree, and here we are...

If this is the case you should have little trouble in accepting arbitrator Nicolaus' decision. He also felt that career expectations should have a minimal impact on the outcome and as such did not assign them very much value.

Though career expectations were enshrined in ALPA merger policy the arbitrator was not bound to consider them and he gave them little weight.

 

[EastUS]

It's Illegal.

So..Shut up and prove that fantasized BS already.

Ableoneable: "If this is the case you should have little trouble in accepting arbitrator Nicolaus' decision. He also felt that career expectations should have a minimal impact on the outcome and as such did not assign them very much value.

Though career expectations were enshrined in ALPA merger policy the arbitrator was not bound to consider them and he gave them little weight."

I noticed that, surprisingly enough 😉 You conveniently evaded the part about: "My belief structures' based on the concept that trade unionism MUST have time worked within it's essential valutations of/for any members, to even exist on any functional level. You disagree, and here we are..."
My problem is that I don't believe trade unionism can exist and function when poisoned by any entire disregard for the essential understanding that no one's inherently "special", and that anyone's value must attain from time worked. Your bunch sees themselves as magically "special" and someone foolishly enabled your fantasies therein. Nothing within that makes you the least bit "Right" 😉

 

[ableoneable]

I noticed that, surprisingly enough 😉 You conveniently evaded the part about: "My belief structures' based on the concept that trade unionism MUST have time worked within it's essential valutations of/for any members, to even exist on any functional level. You disagree, and here we are..."
My problem is that I don't believe trade unionism can exist and function when poisoned by any entire disregard for the essential understanding that no one's inherently "special", and that anyone's value must attain from time worked. Your bunch sees themselves as magiacally "special" and someone foolishly enabled your fantasies therein. Nothing within that makes you the least bit "Right" 😉

First of all your "belief structure" is hardly germane to the arbitration. I don't recall that it had any bearing on the arbitration.

Second of all let's examine your "belief structure."

My problem is that I don't believe trade unionism can exist and function when poisoned by any entire disregard for the essential understanding that no one's inherently "special", and that anyone's value must attain from time worked.

What you are saying here is that you believe that a national seniority list in fact exists. NewsFlash. It does not. Try again.

 

[EastUS]

First of all your "belief structure" is hardly germane to the arbitration. I don't recall that it had any bearing on the arbitration.

Second of all let's examine your "belief structure."
What you are saying here is that you believe that a national seniority list in fact exists. NewsFlash. It does not. Try again.

Whew!..That's a pretty impressive bit of squirming around I'll stick with:

EastUS: "I don't believe trade unionism can exist and function when poisoned by any entire disregard for the essential understanding that no one's inherently "special", and that anyone's value must attain from time worked. Your bunch sees themselves as magically "special" and someone foolishly enabled your fantasies therein. Nothing within that makes you the least bit "Right"

 

[ableoneable]

Whew!..That's a pretty impressive bit of squirming around I'll stick with:

EastUS: "I don't believe trade unionism can exist and function when poisoned by any entire disregard for the essential understanding that no one's inherently "special", and that anyone's value must attain from time worked. Your bunch sees themselves as magiacally "special" and someone foolishly enabled your fantasies therein. Nothing within that makes you the least bit "Right"

No, I have accurately encapsulated your beliefs.

You state that DOH/LOS should be absolutely controlling, this is essentially a national list. Never had one, probably never will.

 

[EastUS]

No, I have accurately encapsulated your beliefs.

You state that DOH/LOS should be absolutely controlling, this is essentially a national list. Never had one, probably never will.

You can attempt an ivalidation of my, and virtually all actual trade union's fundamental concepts...but tossing out the implication that, since no national list for pilots currently exists, that the fundamental validity of time worked is magically invalidated, and that you're thusly, truly entitled to "special" status....Well sir..that's just plain, flat-out, selfish squirming

As for: "No, I have accurately encapsulated your beliefs." From that especially; I find it very difficult to believe that you've any understanding of them at all.....

 

[ableoneable]

You can attempt an ivalidation of my, and virtually all actual trade union's fundamental concepts...but tossing out the implication that, since no national list for pilots currently exists, that the fundamental validity of time worked is magically invalidated, and that you're thusly, truly entitled to "special" status....Well sir..that's just plain, flat-out, selfish squirming

Not at all.

Look at what you have said, time served is the most important and in fact the only factor that should be considered. That is the essence of a national seniority list. Please point out how it is different.

 

[EastUS]

Not at all.

Look at what you have said, time served is the most important and in fact the only factor that should be considered. That is the essence of a national seniority list. Please point out how it is different.

Quite simply; We're not faced here with, nor discussing any existent national seniority list...even though Alpo's finest are even now, uselessly harrumphing about establishing one. We're, or at least I'm, merely attempting to point out the utter futility of assigning "relative" worth to anyone inside the rank and file of any trade union. Such is merely a prescription for the hostile and insane, and fully disruptive type of internecine nonsense we see so perfectly demonstrated around this scenario. Field me ANY argument supporting the fantasy that DOH/LOS integration would have fostered any such BS....???? Test question = Which is the ONLY employee group hereabouts to be mired down in such BS?...and how is it that all other groups integrated decently otherwise? Were all of those people simply far less "special" than your bunch? 😉

Feel free to resume evasive squirming......

 

[ableoneable]

Quite simply; We're not faced here with, nor discussing any existent national seniority list...even though Alpo's finest are even uselessly harrumphing about establishing one. We're, or at least I'm, merely attempting to point out the utter futility of assigning "relative" worth to anyone inside the rank and file of any trade union. Such is merely a prescription for the hostile and insane, and fully disruptive type of internecine nonsense we see so perfectly demonstrated around this scenario. Field me ANY argument supporting the fantasy that DOH/LOS integration would have fostered any such BS....????

Nice try but you are arguing in circles.

You state that DOH/LOS is the only true measure acceptable for pilot integration but that has nothing to do with a national seniority list.

If your "belief structure" was in fact the methodology used it would be a de facto national list. Trying to say that your theory is in no way an end run toward a national list is disingenuous at best.

 

[EastUS]

Nice try but you are arguing in circles.

You state that DOH/LOS is the only true measure acceptable for pilot integration but that has nothing to do with a national seniority list.

If your "belief structure" was in fact the methodology used it would be a de facto national list. Trying to say that your theory is in no way an end run toward a national list is disingenuous at best.

I couldn't give a fig for whatever, entirely flawed and utterly insane "methodology" was in place for this fiasco, nor do I have fantasies about some imminent national list's birthing. Simply speaking:What's right is right..What actually works, works...and you may continue tap dancing at your pleasure.

I notice you've nothing to offer as counterpoint to: " Field me ANY argument supporting the fantasy that DOH/LOS integration would have fostered any such BS....???? Test question = Which is the ONLY employee group hereabouts to be mired down in such BS?...and how is it that all other groups integrated decently otherwise? Were all of those people simply far less "special" than your bunch?" 😉

 

[ableoneable]

I couldn't give a fig for whatever, entirely flawed and utterly insane "methodology" was in place for this fiasco, nor do I have fantasies about some imminent national list's birthing. Simply speaking:What's right is right..What actually works, works...and you may continue tap dancing at your pleasure.

No tap dancing here Ms. Temple.

You are in fact saying that DOH/LOS (a national list equivalent) is the only fair method to integrate pilot groups and anything else is so unfair as to approach evil itself.

Our seniority lists have historically governed our positions within our carriers but have gone no further. If a pilot thought his carrier was headed for the abyss he could either stick it out, start over at the bottom of another legacy, or if he/she were lucky jump to a start up.

Pilots have taken chances. I flew with guys who bailed on TWA in the late 80s to come to AWA, others bailed here and elsewhere to go to JetBlue.

The theory behind these moves was, "I think my airline is going no-where, therefore I am going to take my chances at JetBlue (brand X) and maybe be at the top of something that works.

You believe that all this individual initiative should be completely invalidated in the event of a merger and all integration decided upon who was "here" the longest.

Many pilots who decided to leave a loser for a winner would disagree with your lemming like devotion to "I was here longer than you were there and you should compensate me for my age."

BTW No pilot union has ever been a trade union. This would only be the case if the whole country was a closed shop and there was a union hall for pilots to obtain jobs.

No union has ever had a monopoly on pilot employment. There has never been a pilot trade union.

Try again.

 

[ussnark]

No, I have accurately encapsulated your beliefs.

You state that DOH/LOS should be absolutely controlling, this is essentially a national list. Never had one, probably never will.

Wow, your arrogance is stupendous. You have not "encapsulated" anything, managing to eat your own tail in the process. Always thought the Mayan pictograph for such was idealized until I saw you actually do it.

It seems there were two other possibilities outside of HP for a merger. Given that, I think HP was on the ropes and US, while possibly suffering downsizing, would certainly have survived. Spare us your silly platitudes and fantastical imaginings that HP "saved" US. Even Warren thinks you are silly.

 

[EastUS]

There has never been a pilot trade union.

Sounds like a good time to make a start at it to me

I'll evidently not receive any reply from you on: "I notice you've nothing to offer as counterpoint to: " Field me ANY argument supporting the fantasy that DOH/LOS integration would have fostered any such BS....???? Test question = Which is the ONLY employee group hereabouts to be mired down in such BS?...and how is it that all other groups integrated decently otherwise? Were all of those people simply far less "special" than your bunch?" Nothing to say there? Whatta' surprise 😉