What does a Aircraft Tech make these Days?

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1AA

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First you jump on the Flight Attendants, now you want information on AMT''s salaries. What are you trying to achieve here? If the salary of the AMT is not in your liking will you start bashing the AMT as well?
 
Moving on now.

I had the fortunate opportunity to visit with a flight line aircraft technician the other day in ORD. I had no idea other than what was released in the papers the sacrifices these skilled professionals made in this recovery package. We were told as a public it was around 17.5 percent. He tells me it adds up to around 50 or so percent. Is this true? There are car mechanics and other skilled workforce making more now. I am sorry, but if that 5th stage muffler bearing decides to fail, I don''t think you just pull to the side of the road do you? What is needed to get your skill compensated and prevent the trust by the traveling public from deteriorating?
 
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Why don''t you clarify your question? Add some more important information, like responsibilty.

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Ok, the responsibility level.....Personal or Professional?

Personal- Aren''t they licensed by the Feds. Can they do time if they screw up?

Professional- Don''t they have a responsibility to keep up with the latest technologies, procedures. Ie. training.

Thank You
 
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On 6/8/2003 11:38:25 AM 1AA wrote:

First you jump on the Flight Attendants, now you want information on AMT''s salaries. What are you trying to achieve here? If the salary of the AMT is not in your liking will you start bashing the AMT as well?



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The safety of my flight depends on the level of maintenance performed on a piece of machinery designed to defy gravity. Plain and simple. This technician I talked to represented himself very professionally, but in his tone I could sense tension, stress, and concern. Symptons that in the medical field we relate to accidents, mistakes, and illness. How many other employees are working and performing under these conditions? I asked a question. What does an aircraft technician make these days to perform a task on an aircraft that he has to live with rest of his life. If I am not mistaken, a flight crew, FA''s included just pick up their bags and walk off the plane just like the passengers. A technician lives with a permanent sheet metal repair in a critical area of the structure the rest of the aircraft service life, correct?

Thank You
 
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On 6/8/2003 12:02:29 PM pricklyheat wrote:


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On 6/8/2003 11:38:25 AM 1AA wrote:

First you jump on the Flight Attendants, now you want information on AMT''s salaries. What are you trying to achieve here? If the salary of the AMT is not in your liking will you start bashing the AMT as well?



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The safety of my flight depends on the level of maintenance performed on a piece of machinery designed to defy gravity. Plain and simple. This technician I talked to represented himself very professionally, but in his tone I could sense tension, stress, and concern. Symptons that in the medical field we relate to accidents, mistakes, and illness. How many other employees are working and performing under these conditions? I asked a question. What does an aircraft technician make these days to perform a task on an aircraft that he has to live with rest of his life. If I am not mistaken, a flight crew, FA''s included just pick up their bags and walk off the plane just like the passengers. A technician lives with a permanent sheet metal repair in a critical area of the structure the rest of the aircraft service life, correct?

Thank You

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Why don''t you clarify your question? Add some more important information, like responsibilty.
 
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Ok, the responsibility level.....Personal or Professional?

Personal- Aren't they licensed by the Feds. Can they do time if they screw up?

Professional- Don't they have a responsibility to keep up with the latest technologies, procedures. Ie. training.

Thank You

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Yes, the AMT is personally responsable for Airworthiness Directives (AD Notes) and Service Bulletins. I know more than one AMT at AA who have paid fines for missing such items.
You are correct when you say that an AMT's responsablity extends much further than that of a Flight Attendant or even a Pilot in regard to an aircraft's service life. I have performed repairs on aircraft 10, even 20 years ago that may still be out there flying over your house, your kid's school, etc.
Post deregulation Airline Management, along with their willing accomplices in the industrial unions, especially the TWU, have successfully degraded and diluted our profession with unlicensed, untrained individuals in the name of "strength in numbers" and massive dues collection for political activism.
Pre-deregulation A&P Mechanics earned approx. 40% of a pilot's salary. Today that number is about 20%.
The Pilots have their own Pilot only union. AAs flight attendants left the TWU in 1974 and formed their own Flight Attendants only union. These two group have done quite well for themselves while the AMTs have suffered the burden of elevating fleet service's pay for 2o + years.
Until Mechanics industry wide shed the oppressive nature of industrial unionism, we will never make the gains or recieve the public respect we deserve.
Northwest, Southwest, Alaska, Horizon, Mesaba, ACA have all shed their industrial unions and selected AMFA as their representation. Soon, United will join the ranks of AMFA. American SHOULD be next.
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On 6/8/2003 12:57:17 PM RUM@AA wrote:



Yes, the AMT is personally responsable for Airworthiness Directives (AD Notes) and Service Bulletins. I know more than one AMT at AA who have paid fines for missing such items.
You are correct when you say that an AMT''s responsablity extends much further than that of a Flight Attendant or even a Pilot in regard to an aircraft''s service life. I have performed repairs on aircraft 10, even 20 years ago that may still be out there flying over your house, your kid''s school, etc.
Post deregulation Airline Management, along with their willing accomplices in the industrial unions, especially the TWU, have successfully degraded and diluted our profession with unlicensed, untrained individuals in the name of "strength in numbers" and massive dues collection for political activism.
Pre-deregulation A&P Mechanics earned approx. 40% of a pilot''s salary. Today that number is about 20%.
The Pilots have their own Pilot only union. AAs flight attendants left the TWU in 1974 and formed their own Flight Attendants only union. These two group have done quite well for themselves while the AMTs have suffered the burden of elevating fleet service''s pay for 2o + years.
Until Mechanics industry wide shed the oppressive nature of industrial unionism, we will never make the gains or recieve the public respect we deserve.
Northwest, Southwest, Alaska, Horizon, Mesaba, ACA have all shed their industrial unions and selected AMFA as their representation. Soon, United will join the ranks of AMFA. American SHOULD be next.


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Post deregulation has been a disater for AMT''s with falling wages and benifits. Within the last 5 years a new threat has emerged that is putting the final nail in the AMT''s coffin! The phony balony outfit that calls itself amfa has been working dilligently with Airline Management to quickly outsource what few jobs remain in-house. All the while the leaders of amfa enrichen themselfs with outrageous dues and "asessments". In years past, temporary layoffs were used to help companies weather the slow times. Today, with amfa''s help, this work is being permantly shipped off to forign repair stations which pay their employees pennies an hour! When things pick up again the work will still remain in Singapore and China. Sadly it just won''t be coming back. How can American workers compete with this? They can''t. But as long as the amfa leaders keep making their outrageous salaries they can''t be bothered by such trivial matters!
 
If one really wants to know about the Aircraft Maintenance Profession, then read this:

[url="http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/08_NWA_Archive/PEBStat_Trans_Exh/peb320nw.PDF"]http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/08_NWA_Archi...xh/peb320nw.PDF[/URL]

Study the testimony of Mr. Brian Fennigan from P.A.M.A.!

Or visit the P.A.M.A. Website at:
[url="http://www.pama.org/"]http://www.pama.org/[/URL]

I cannot think of better study, presentation, and explanation of the AMT than that which Mr. Fennigan presented to the Presidential Emergency Board on March 20, 2001.
 
This is more accurate Information;


[url="http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmaintenance/previous/0702/0702salary_survey.htm"]http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmai...lary_survey.htm[/URL]
and
[url="http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmaintenance/previous/0702/figure05.jpg"]http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/avmai...02/figure05.jpg[/URL]







July 2002
Previous Issues


2002 Aviation Maintenance U.S. Salary Survey
New contracts at big airlines boost pay, but wages at regional airlines, FBOs, and schools still lag.
By Kathleen Kocks, Contributing Editor








Salary Survey Charts
Employers
Certificates Held
Wages By Employer
Wages By FAA Region
Comparing Salaries
Experience
Education
"Fair" Compensation
Last Year''s Raise
Pay For Training
Who Trains Most?
Making The Job Better
Sound the trumpets: The news is good. Despite a lethargic economy and the damage inflicted upon aviation following the September 11 terrorist attacks, the salaries of U.S. aviation maintenance professionals made decent advances this year.
Aviation Maintenance’s 2002 survey reports an overall average salary of $53,900 (about $25.50 hourly). This compares to an overall average salary of $47,300 (about $22.75 hourly) reported in our previous survey (in 2000).
Taking a broader look by comparing data from our 1998 survey with this year’s, we see that the salaries from most employers and for most jobs are staying ahead of inflation. Salaries from manufacturers indicate astonishing gains, but we must add that this year’s response had more input from maintenance department managers and engineers, and less response from A&Ps and technicians.
Yet all is not rosy. Salary data from the training side of the business is a cause for concern. Poor compensation in this area not only negatively impacts the individual instructor. It also hurts industry’s capability to attract good instructors for future mechanics.
We are concerned that a third of our respondents reported no salary increase, while others reported salary cuts and worries about job security.
We are also concerned because 70 percent of our response was from aviation maintenance professionals having 15 years or more experience. Where are the young mechanics?
Finally, we are concerned to hear so many respondents say they don’t receive enough recognition and appreciation for their work. It is a distinct call for the aviation maintenance industry to galvanize efforts to raise awareness of this profession’s contributions.
Fleshing out the responders
This survey’s data is based upon 679 responses from across the United States. The bulk of the response, 69 percent, was from the FAA’s aviation-rich Eastern, Southern, Great Lakes, and Western Pacific regions.
Once again, we are pleased with how well the respondent population compares to those of past surveys. This continuity fortifies our confidence that the salaries and sentiments reported are representative of the industry at large. In line with our earlier surveys, most of our 2002 survey respondents said they worked for airlines and repair stations/completion shops/overhaul centers. Thus, we continued to receive good feedback from the operational and support sides of the industry.
Wrench-turning A&P and IA mechanics made up 63 percent of our respondent population. Maintenance directors made up another 26 percent. As mentioned earlier, 70 percent of respondents have 15 years or more industry experience.
The high level of respondent experience could beg the question of whether our data are reporting salaries higher than the industry-wide average. We doubt it, and the reason is related to job seniority. Despite their "industry experience," 44 percent of our respondents said they have worked for their current employer for five or fewer years. While job-hopping in most industries translates into higher salaries, that isn’t always the case in aviation maintenance.
In this business, seniority often counts for more than certification, education, and experience. This is particularly true at larger companies—where 47 percent of our respondents work. As a result, the aviation maintenance professional’s salary often drops when he or she changes jobs.
The situation is clearly explained by a line mechanic for a major airline: "Mechanics should be paid wages reflective of their total work experience, not just job seniority. I’m starting on my fourth airline in 15 years and only making $3 an hour more than I was 15 years ago."
Job-hopping also negatively impacts vacation time. Forty-nine percent of our respondents said they get 10 days or less of vacation annually.
It’s a pity education and certification don’t always translate into higher compensation, because our respondents are very well trained. Ninety-five percent reported having degrees from vocational schools or colleges, 51 percent said they have A&P licenses, and 39 percent said they have an A&P and FCC, IA, or DER certification.
Money, hours, job satisfaction
As mentioned earlier, the average salary is $53,900. Corporate flight departments, manufacturers, and major airlines pay the most, while FBOs, regional airlines, and training facilities pay the least. Employers handed out fewer raises this year. . Thirty-three percent of respondents said they received no raise and 3 percent reported pay cuts. That’s quite different from our 2000 survey, where only 5 percent said they had received no raise and 2 percent said their pay had been cut. A number of this year’s respondents attributed pay freezes, cuts, and reduced hours to the aftermath of September 11.
For the group that did receive raises, the overall average was 6.9 percent. That robust rate was directly related to raises received by major airline mechanics, who reported an incredible 13.2 percent average raise, thanks to new union contracts. Twenty-seven percent of our respondents said they were represented by unions. Of those, 80 percent worked for an airline.
It is also important to recognize that, in many cases, these raises were preceded by several years with no wage increase. "I received a 20 percent raise this year, but it was my first raise in six years," wrote one airline mechanic. "I got a substantial raise this year, but it hardly made up for four years without any," said a repair station lead mechanic. And a regional airline lead mechanic wrote, "I haven’t had a raise in four years, per our union contract, but will get a five cent raise this year—like that will make a difference!"
Another factor that impacts wages is overtime hours. The average work week reported by our respondents was 44 hours. Sixty-five percent of respondents said they are paid for overtime. Interestingly, this group averaged 43 hours a week, while the group that is not paid for overtime averaged 45 hours a week. Despite the improved salary picture, 53 percent of respondents said they believe they are not appropriately compensated. The most disgruntled group was the regional airline crowd; 83 percent said they are not fairly compensated. This group also had the second-lowest average wage and received the fewest raises.
For our 1999 and 2000 surveys, we determined that the monetary point where a majority of respondents said they were paid fairly was about $25 an hour. This year, the point has risen to about $30 an hour. That translates into an annual salary of $62,400.
A request to rate their work environment on a scale of one (bad) to 10 (good) generated an overall rating of 6.8. The respondents citing the best environment worked for corporate flight departments (8.4 rating), while the group reporting the worst environments worked for major and regional airlines (6.1).
This isn’t startling, given that airline maintenance operates around the clock, generally every day of the year. That dictates not just three shifts a day, but also schedules like six-days on/two-days off. The requirement for airline mechanics to work outside in all types of weather can add to the unpleasant environment.
On the benefits side of the equation, a few subtle changes occurred. One was an increase in 401K plans. This was counterbalanced by a reduction in pensions and profit sharing. In 1998, 76 percent of respondents said they had a 401K; today 84 percent do. Meanwhile, the percent reporting that they received pensions declined 6 percent from 1998 to 2001 and profit sharing declined 5 percent.
The percentage of respondents reporting that they received health benefits remained high, but several respondents complained about having to pay more for less coverage. However, complaints about benefits have dropped since our 1998 survey. Back then, 19 percent of respondents complained about benefits. Today, the number is 9 percent.
Making jobs better
When asked what would make their job better, 75 percent of the respondents sharpened their pencils and gave us their candid opinions.
"MONEY!!!!!" was the top response, mentioned by 31 percent of respondents.
"The pay of the A&P technician is far below that of comparable fields. The responsibility we carry on our backs is enormous," wrote one major airline line mechanic.
"Having a five-year degree, I could be an engineer and easily make twice as much at 10 years’ experience," wrote a repair station training director. "I know you have heard it before, but engineers don’t usually put their name and livelihood on the line if their work has any mistakes in it. I’ve chosen what I do and enjoy it, but the financial prospects for the future have me looking hard outside aviation, as well as working a second job (outside aviation) to make ends meet."
"Management needs to understand that it costs more to live each year and you can’t pay for all the health insurance, social security, federal, state, and local taxes, and still have a decent standard of living in this nation’s economy," wrote a maintenance director at a maintenance school. "After all the deductions are taken out, there is not much left to raise a family on, and saving for the future is impossible."
"We need to be paid for what we are worth," wrote a corporate flight department line mechanic. "Good thing for overtime, because sometimes we wouldn’t be able to make it. The job is great; the pay stinks."
"I’ve spent 23 years in this industry, from turbine engine technician to shop supervisor to avionics installer," argued a repair station avionics technician. "I’m a VERY skilled craftsman, producing meticulous, fine work on a consistent basis, yet I make the same wage I made 10 years ago! Until this industry starts paying its very skilled people, the shortage of those people will continue. We are still either not demanding enough or foolish enough to tolerate it."
A desire for more training was the number two request, from 26 percent of respondents.
"Since the FAA doesn’t regulate us as much as pilots, companies do not invest resources on maintenance staff," said a lead mechanic at an air-taxi operator. "As a result, training has not kept up with new technology."
"I think recurrent training should be required for employers to offer to their employees on a consistent and timely schedule," said a line mechanic for a major airline.
However, training is an area that has shown improvement each year since our 1998 survey. Back then, 58 percent of respondents said they received company-paid initial and recurrent training. For this year’s survey, 66 percent did. The percentage of employers reported to offer no training has also declined, from 25 percent in 1998 to 21 percent today.
Ranking third was a chorus of pleas for better management. One major airline line mechanic summed up the main complaints very well: "I’d like to see management wake up and start listening to the mechanics as to what we need to get the job completed in a timely manner," he wrote. "We also want to be treated with respect. Some of us are more educated than our supervisors, and we can make and do make the decisions to complete jobs."
"Competent management would help make my job better," penned another major airline line mechanic. "I often feel that I or we do a great job despite management’s best efforts to tie our hands."
"I would like to see less focus on trying to ‘manage the numbers’ and ‘executive troubleshooting’ and more focus on getting parts and tools and developing people," said a maintenance director for a major airline.
Having tools ranked fourth on respondents’ wish lists. "It is very discouraging to troubleshoot and work for hours on a problem only to have to wait for hours to get a part—if you get it at all," complained a line mechanic for a major airline.
As they have in years past, respondents said recognition as professionals and appreciation for their work would make their jobs better. Some called for the Department of Labor or the FAA to redefine the profession as a way to raise prestige. [A proposal circulating at FAA headquarters suggests such a change to Part 65, but it is not yet a proposed rule change.—Editor]. Others called for trade associations to help. Or for unionization. Another major airline line mechanic turned the tables:
"I have found aircraft mechanics to be our own worst enemy. We as a whole need to be more professional and carry ourselves with pride. We should not let outside problems (i.e. management) take away who we really are and what we do and stand for."
Concluding advice
As you contemplate this year’s salary survey, we’d like to leave you with some thought-provoking words from a fellow aviation maintenance professional, a director of maintenance at a corporate flight department: "I started with an A&P in 1973, making $3.10 an hour at a small flight school/FBO. Through dedication to my profession, paying attention and learning, loyalty to the company I worked for, a little luck and perseverance, I’ve had a good life and career.
"I have been in my present position for 22 years. I am proud to be an A&P/IA. It is a good profession. I have worked hard to get to this point and have enjoyed doing it.
"Today, there is an idea that everyone should start at the top, in pay and position. Real life doesn’t work that way. If you truly enjoy working on aircraft, stick with it. Learn from those who know and respect that knowledge.
"I read letters in the trades about everyone sitting around complaining about pay. If you are not happy with your job, you will again be unhappy [six weeks after you get a raise]. If this is the case, then get out; find a position that makes you happy. Don’t spend your life thinking money will make you happy."
 
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On 6/8/2003 6:16:33 PM acmech wrote:

What Does an AMT make these days? Nothing if they were laid off.

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And if you work for American Airlines at least 17.5% less and up to 36% less in wages alone. And those in this thread who support the TWU are satisfied?
 
Anybody care to predict PH''s next topic? Will it be:

A) What does a pilot make these days?
B) What does a res agent make these days?
C) What does a gate agent make these days?
D) What does a bag crusher make these days?
E) Other
 
I've learned a few things from this tread. Thanks RUM@AA for the history lesson on the formation of the APFA. Long ago I was a trade union member when my occupation required it. But as a businessman, I have always been a strong supporter of my trade associations; because in organized strength there is power.

But if I still worked at a skilled trade, I would surely only want to be a member of, and represented by, an organization/union of my skill peers. I am very familiar with the history of the trade based AFL (e.g., carpenters) and the industrial labor unionization gains made by the CIO (e.g., mineworkers, auto workers).

I have followed this board since the demise of the Plane Business board and am very familiar with many of you through your handles and postings. Although I may not agree with everything our new poster pricklyheat says, I think he has hit on a nerve that many of us pax worry about. He stated above [Ellipses added to denote deletions]:

“The safety of my flight depends on the level of maintenance performed on a piece of machinery designed to defy gravity…This technician I talked to represented himself very professionally, but in his tone I could sense tension, stress, and concern…..I asked a question. What does an aircraft technician make these days to perform a task on an aircraft that he has to live with rest of his life. If I am not mistaken, a flight crew, FA's included just pick up their bags and walk off the plane just like the passengers."

I think this is a very good question and it disturbs me greatly to constantly read on this board that aviation mechanical specialist pay is behind automobile mechanical pay. If my car stops running, I pull over to the side of the road. The pilot of the airplane on which I am flying does not have such an easy option. I want all of the licensed and accountable professional aviation people to be paid for, and commensurate with, their skills on a competitive basis.
 
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