What if there were NO unions?

[back2CLT]

I'm just a retarded semi-frequent flyer who works an office job who travels for both business and leisure....just though I should qualify myself.

I've been reading this site for a while, and it works me into a rage in almost every thread. The infighting among east vs west, gate agents vs. flight attendants, ex-employees vs. current ones, possibly mgmt. vs. line workers.

To read this from an oblivious and unbiased point of view its seems completely ridiculous with 100% of people to blame, from Parker down to the reserve flight attendants (not insinuating you guys are at the bottom, you just seem to b;tch the most).

My simple question is, why are you unionized, other than "that's the way its always been". I read something in another thread that a union is only as good as its weakest link....how true, and how sad for anyone thinking that a union is benefitting them.

Make management pay you what your worth, not what a bunch of spineless people who don't want to work determine your worth. It sorts itself out, especially when people can easily be fired if they don't meet performance standards. You want productive people, pay them for it.

Essentially, all I here is that people are not doing their job because they think they're underpaid. The truth is, your paid what the "weakest" member is worth, which is not much IMO.

I'd much rather have my pilot worrying about his performance to get promoted rather than just going through the motions wondering when someone above him will retire.

As an office worker, I have hard time fathoming the usefulness of a union. I'm paid well because I perform well. People who don't perform well are fired, or at least aren't promoted. I don't b;itch when my boss asks me to do a job that isn't my primary responsibility. I do what I'm asked because I know it reflects well on me. Unions negate this because extra effort is never rewarded, and underachieving is rarely punished.

Now I'm expecting 50 people to tell me how this wouldn't work as airlines are a different business, but stop drinking your own union kool-aid and think about it. What has the union ever gotten for you in terms of rewarding you for performance?

I'm sure many will say that management will just fire everyone and hire the cheapest alternative. Perhaps, but this would be a much quicker education for them than this painful death now.....and I can bet you that they will be calling all the managers asking who was worthwhile so they can hire them back...and then, when you're needed, that's when you'll get the respect and pay that you deserve.

Remember, in order for Doug to get his golden parachute as many of you feel is the end goal, he needs an operating airline.

 

[signals]

I'm just a retarded semi-frequent flyer who works an office job who travels for both business and leisure....just though I should qualify myself.

I've been reading this site for a while, and it works me into a rage in almost every thread. The infighting among east vs west, gate agents vs. flight attendants, ex-employees vs. current ones, possibly mgmt. vs. line workers.

To read this from an oblivious and unbiased point of view its seems completely ridiculous with 100% of people to blame, from Parker down to the reserve flight attendants (not insinuating you guys are at the bottom, you just seem to b;tch the most).

My simple question is, why are you unionized, other than "that's the way its always been". I read something in another thread that a union is only as good as its weakest link....how true, and how sad for anyone thinking that a union is benefitting them.

Make management pay you what your worth, not what a bunch of spineless people who don't want to work determine your worth. It sorts itself out, especially when people can easily be fired if they don't meet performance standards. You want productive people, pay them for it.

Essentially, all I here is that people are not doing their job because they think they're underpaid. The truth is, your paid what the "weakest" member is worth, which is not much IMO.

I'd much rather have my pilot worrying about his performance to get promoted rather than just going through the motions wondering when someone above him will retire.

As an office worker, I have hard time fathoming the usefulness of a union. I'm paid well because I perform well. People who don't perform well are fired, or at least aren't promoted. I don't b;itch when my boss asks me to do a job that isn't my primary responsibility. I do what I'm asked because I know it reflects well on me. Unions negate this because extra effort is never rewarded, and underachieving is rarely punished.

Now I'm expecting 50 people to tell me how this wouldn't work as airlines are a different business, but stop drinking your own union kool-aid and think about it. What has the union ever gotten for you in terms of rewarding you for performance?

I'm sure many will say that management will just fire everyone and hire the cheapest alternative. Perhaps, but this would be a much quicker education for them than this painful death now.....and I can bet you that they will be calling all the managers asking who was worthwhile so they can hire them back...and then, when you're needed, that's when you'll get the respect and pay that you deserve.

Remember, in order for Doug to get his golden parachute as many of you feel is the end goal, he needs an operating airline.

WOW a real live Union Buster! Can you be anymore obvious mister Airways? Divide and conquer and prepare the sheep for the slaughter!

What if there were no unions and everyone got paid what they were worth? It depends who you ask...to me, I'm worth a million dollars an hour. To management I may be worth 2 shiney nickles and an ice cream cone! Would I want 2 shiney nickles and an ice cream cone? Only if they come with a decent union wage!

How much you think you're worth? More than likely you will know when your usefulness expires!

UNION FOREVER!

 

[necigrad]

There's no correct answer to your question. The East vs. West thing is hit and miss; here in Las Vegas we all all exceptionally friendly to each other, here people play the diehard "Everything was fine until YOU came along!". Gate agents and flgiht attendants (and other work group combinations) gripe about each other because of work interactions. Pilots will moan about inflights and mechanics, mechanics will gripe about the pilots and rampers, rampers will whine about pilots and techs.

But your overall question "what if there were no unions"... Well, maybe one should look at what unions in general have gotten. Health insurance. Pensions. The 40 hour week. Guaranteed raises. And the list goes on.

 

[700UW]

Airlines are one of the highest unionized industries in the US because management would rape and pillage the employees.

For example back in 1992 US was in financial dire needs.

The pilots took a paycut so the company did the following to the non union employees, IE Ramp and CSA.

They took away their vacation time, sick time and OJI time, replaced them with PDO that were less amounts then the previous items, you had to bank five PDOs off the bat for sick usage.

Then they cut 40% of the full time employees back to part time, in CLT you had to have had 13 years to be full time. A consequence of being bumped from 40 hours back to as little as 20 was your insurance for your family was no longer free and they had to pay $300 a month for family medical.

They cut their pay.

They froze their pension.

Outsourced, Mail, Freight and Express work which resulted in layoffs.

In maintenance they had to sit down with us and negotiate concessions, they could not just change employment conditions anytime they felt like it as they did with the non-union employees.

Myself only had three years with the company and yet I remained a full time employee.

We went on strike for five days and ended up with less of a pay and benefit cuts than the non-union employees.

As a matter of fact we got 200% return on the pay concessions we took.

Ask yourself why is the airline industry so heavily unionized.

It is OK for the Executives to have a contract, why should the rank and file employees who keep the airline running not be afforded the same rights.

When an airline files Chapter 11, for example Delta, the only employee on the property that they had to negotiate with was the pilots as they are represented by ALPA.

All the other employees had NO say on what Delta did to them, which ended up bad, they outsourced numerous cities.

Now at US, we did not fair that well in the second chapter 11 as there was not much to give back, but at least the employees had the right to vote on the changes and the law forced the company to negotiate with the unions.

Unions are a way to level the playing field and make management go by the rules. It eliminates the brown nosers from getting better working conditions then the rest of the employees and forces the company to follow Just Cause when they terminate someone, otherwise the company would run rampant with discipline and terminations.

Unions are not perfect and membership apathy is rampant, but ask anyone in the industry would they rather be union or non-union and the majority would prefer union as airline management does not care about the employees, this was shown to US during the second bankruptcy.

I was on the negotiating committee and the company did not want a deal with us, we could not agree to the items they wanted, so the Judge abrogated and US gave the employees a final offer which was ratified, but at least it was still better than the company being given Carte Blanche to do as they seem fit.

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Dog Wonder]

There used to be no union on the ramp.

Power mad managers, food stamp wages. layoffs on a whim.

Then they got unions.

The only way to fight back was to stick together.

As long as there are power mad managers and food stamp wages workers will join together to fight back.

Win or lose they cannot give up.

 

[freedom]

I’ve seen what happens to Americans working in airline jobs who aren’t in a union , and it’s nothing but an outrage , no health care , no flight benefits and pathetic wages .The workers who are in these jobs feel trapped and downtrodden , which they are and the owners of these companies such as service air and mesa airlines are getting rich off of the backs of Americans in a way that is far more gross than any sort of comparison than can be made to us airways and our management ..

 

[JoeDirt]

700
One of your numbers are a little off. In 1992 I had 7 years on the ramp and I kept my full time. I was pretty much at the bottom of the full time list but full time. I have been one of the few that have never had to transfer to remain full time nor have ever been bumped back to part time.

 

[700UW]

Ok, I thought it was 13, maybe that was CS?

 

[back2CLT]

Mister AIRWAYS?? Sorry, if I was the "enemy", I'd have a bit more tact.

I'm sure I'll have plenty more to respond to, but my first reaction to the responses so far is, wow, you guys sure seem to stick up for your unions now, so what's with the eternal griping? I've yet to read in another thread, how appreciative you are for your union contracts....and well, its because you're not, and you probably shouldn't be.

700UW...you make the point that no-union employees have been hurt more than union employees. I don't argue that that has been true, which is why I'm suggesting NO unions so there aren't easy scapegoats.

I guess, to be more inclusive, my theory would only work if it was industry wide, not specific to one airline. Airlines are a very labor intensive industry, so its not so easy just to eliminate everyone. Let the fat be trimmed, and let it be for something more than seniority sake. Is Airline A is willing to pay the most money, then they will attract the best talent, is Airline USAirways is will to pay the least, they will be left with the worst talent, in which case their demise will come much quicker. There only salvation is to attract better talent, which means pay more......

As far as all the great benefits, hell, that's better than I get...I have a nice salary, but I only get 60% health care and no flight benefits... I work in finance, and the most profitable companies pay the best salaries to get the best employees, which ensures they remain the most profitable companies.

Again, it just seems everyone is so entrenched in the union philosophy, that they fail to understand the macro-economics of it. You can point to specific examples of what happens without unions, but its flawed, since the reality is, the presence of unions has exagerrated the consequences of none union workers. Take away all unions, and you don't have a whipping boy.....the only way to determine who goes is by who is the weakest link.

The term "brown nosers" was used in a disparaging way, but what this really equals are people who show up to impress....why shouldn't they get better working conditions.

To the flight attendant who complained of cleaning a lavatory (in another thread)....I used to manage a retail store, when a customer pissed on the seat of a toilet, I went in there and cleaned it (certainly not my job). I could have hired a full time lavatory cleaner, but that would have been useless costs, eating into my stores profit. Instead, I kept the place clean to offer the customer the best experience possible, so hopefully they would return, MAKING more money. If we made more money, I got a bigger bonus, bigger salary. See a little extra work does have rewards....but only when I'm not in some arbitrary contract that negates that extra effort.

 

[700UW]

I am not brain washed by union philosophy.

Unions are necessary in the airline industry, you cant compare retail, finance etc to the airlines.

Do you know that airline workers have the second highest injury rate than any other job except farming?

In the industry it is very manual labor intense, and yes I did you brown nose in a bad way because it is the truth.

I seen slackers get away with anything and everything when I was non-union years ago at PI, as long as they took care of the supervisor they got away with being lazy, while the hard working employees had to work even harder to pick up the slack.

Since you have never worked in the environment you wont understand the dynamics of it.

US use to have workers that cleaned the planes, do you realize when the plane is sitting at the gate and the FAs are "tiding up" or boarding they don't get paid?

Unions were started hundreds of years ago to eliminate company towns and the feudal system.

You also failed to address why is OK for Executives to have an employment contract and not the rank and file who bust their butts everyday to keep the operation going.

There is no sense of entitlement from the unionized workers, but they want a guarantee of pay, benefits, pension and etc like the executives have.

Don't you know DL use to pay more than the unionized carriers to keep their employees from unionizing?

Why do companies spend millions during organizing drives to prevent unions from coming on the property?

Look at WN, they have the highest percentage of unionized workforce, they are the highest paid and most profitable airline, they have not lost money in over 30 years.

There is a reason why the industry is so heavily unionized and it is to level the playing field and have a collective voice.

You had people get killed in the US in order to protect the workers' right to form a union.

If there was no union the company would use the employees as whipping boys as they try to do now, at least the union can protect the workers as best as they can. Unfortunately they have used 9/11 and Bankruptcy to gut the employees way of life.

Labor union: an organization of workers formed for the purpose of advancing its members' interests in respect to wages, benefits, and working conditions

 

[songbirdstew]

To the flight attendant who complained of cleaning a lavatory (in another thread)....I used to manage a retail store, when a customer pissed on the seat of a toilet, I went in there and cleaned it (certainly not my job). I could have hired a full time lavatory cleaner, but that would have been useless costs, eating into my stores profit. Instead, I kept the place clean to offer the customer the best experience possible, so hopefully they would return, MAKING more money. If we made more money, I got a bigger bonus, bigger salary. See a little extra work does have rewards....but only when I'm not in some arbitrary contract that negates that extra effort.

OK, Mr. Janitor,
A large majority of our aircraft only have cold running water in our lavatories. We are not given any kind of hand sanitizer to use by the airline if we did take care of anything like piss on the seat. 50% of the time, the cleaners forget to put soap in our lavs. I'm sure your retail store had hot water and soap and most likely the supplies to take care of customers messes. We are given NOTHING ! There are a few pair of latex gloves in our supplemental equipment pouches to be used in case of passengers who get air sick and vomit or we need to deal with any other bodily fluid. They are not to be used every time we hit turbulence and some guy pees all over the toilet.

I bring my own latex gloves to clean the cabin because we are expected to pick up things off the seats...including used tissues. I cannot tell you the amount of people who think that it's okay to wipe their nose or their mouth and then expect me to take their napkin out of their hands with their snot all over it.

For me it's a matter of hygiene. Our job is a filthy one. When I get to my hotel room at night one of the first things I do is wash my hands and even though I have washed them through out the day, the water is gray to dark brown with filth. Would you like me to clean up your mess in the lavatory and then serve you dinner or anything to drink ?

Bet you just lost your appetite.

 

[N903AW]

Take note that America's most "beloved" airline in the industry, Southwest Airlines, is probably one of the most, if not the most, heavily unionized airlines in the nation.

The reason that things are, for the most part, harmonious at Southwest vs. other major airlines with large union workgroups is the relationship between management and the represented workgroups. Southwest has one of the best relationships with its employees and treats them with respect and dignity...contracts and all. Other airlines (most legacy carriers ie. Northwest, United, American, US Airways) regard their employees as "cost liabilities" and this is usually reflected in employee morale.

The only legacy carrier that is mostly non-union, with exception to the pilot workgroup, is Delta. If you look at past history with this particular example whenever an organizing campaign begins to take root at Delta, you will see management at this airline sweetening the pot for its employees to ward off the unions. However, this is usually a double-edged sword, because once the campaign drive fails management will usually rescind it's offers/rewards in the form of cutbacks or outsourcing. Eventually another campaign drive to organize begins and the cycle begins all over again.

Unions are not the problem. How management regards, negotiates with and treat unions and their membership is.

 

[700UW]

Very Well said 903AW.

 

[dexter]

Unions are necessary in all major companies for the mere fact it ensures salary, wages and benefits. Heck, I would rather put my trust in a contract than broken promises of a company. Although there are complaints with any union at least I can go to bed at night and know my salary is not being cut in half the next day.

 

[necigrad]

When I worked in retail, I busted my ass. I was a part timer working 35 hours a week, earning slightly over minimum wage, disciplined for using sick time given to my by the company, and I worked varied shifts. I worked hard, damn hard. I asked for promotions and was denied, while others that screwed off were given the positions instead. When the manager was short and NEEDED someone responsible to be a lead cashier I got it, only because he was "desperate", and I did so without a raise. Well, why didn't I get a better job? I did, and a week after I turned in my two weeks notice the boss called me in, refused the date I provided, and demanded I work longer. Nope, unions are necessary at all; management takes care of their employees.

Someone pointed out Southwest as a unionized, but profitable, example. Were I to have hired on at WN instead of HP I'd be at $24/hour (about) insted of the $12.65/hour I'm at now. Management doesn't value the employee, and that is why there is discord amounst labor. BTW, Southwest employees bust major ass for their $24/hour. They get paid what they're worth.