What if there were NO unions?

[legacy-to-LCC]

Go start a better company? You can do it the unins could do it?
But my guess is if you did start your own succesful unionized company it wouldn't be to long before you and the union where being counter productive and not working together. That is all I am saying.

what a profound and insightful contribution to this thread...NOT!

 

[700UW]

UP,

Come on back with facts.

Look at the most heavily unionized airline, Southwest.

Gee, they are the highest paid in the industry and the most profitable for over 30 years straight.

Explain that one?

One more thing, why is ok for Doug and the rest of the executives to have employment contracts and you dont think the rank and file should?

 

[diogenes]

UPNAWAY,

"Show me an industry with a very senior and unionized work force that thrives?"
Done. WN. They have the same % of unionization as US.

Unions comprise about 7.5% of labor in the private sector. Contrast that with a survey done by the Commerce Department:

30% of business start-ups fail within the first year.

70% fail with 3 years.

80% within 5 years.

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/conte...002034_8796.htm

To grasp the magnitude of annual business failures, consider this: The University of Michigan says there were 23 million business start ups in 2005.

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=46

30% x 23 million = 6.9 million business start-up failures in 2005 alone.

The conclusion is simple. Assuming your assertion true - unions cause business failure - there simply aren't enough evil union employees to go around to cause business failures at the rate cited in the survey.

Please keep in mind my #'s are very conservative - they don't take into account established business BK's (US, DL, NW, UA) or under performing businesses (Corning, a few years back) or poorly operated businesses (the whole subprime debacle).

Most businesses don't have union employees. Every one of them has management.

It's just part of the corporate media PR schtik to ignore that fact, and this one:

More managers will drive businesses under in one month than unions will in a decade.

 

[diogenes]

I don't patronize Exxon after the half billion dollar retirement of their last chairman, however the one place that I would most like to see fall into the furthest reaches of hell is Wal-Mart. It is a hands-down choice for my most despised list.

We're on the same wavelength - Wal-Mart is on the top of my S.L., too. My experience is, some folks would rather eat their children than give Wal Mart up (sigh). Plus, in a lot of rural areas, Wal Mart has driven out the mom&pops, and they are the sole merchandiser.

So I've settled on lower-hanging fruit.

 

[700UW]

Another thing UP

The unionized employees of US gave concessions back in 1992 to save the company, twice in the first chapter 11 and once in the second.

Seems to me management doesnt know how to run the company, they filed twice in less than years!

 

[kicked2curb]

I'm just a retarded semi-frequent flyer who works an office job who travels for both business and leisure....just though I should qualify myself.

I've been reading this site for a while, and it works me into a rage in almost every thread. The infighting among east vs west, gate agents vs. flight attendants, ex-employees vs. current ones, possibly mgmt. vs. line workers.

To read this from an oblivious and unbiased point of view its seems completely ridiculous with 100% of people to blame, from Parker down to the reserve flight attendants (not insinuating you guys are at the bottom, you just seem to b;tch the most).

My simple question is, why are you unionized, other than "that's the way its always been". I read something in another thread that a union is only as good as its weakest link....how true, and how sad for anyone thinking that a union is benefitting them.

Make management pay you what your worth, not what a bunch of spineless people who don't want to work determine your worth. It sorts itself out, especially when people can easily be fired if they don't meet performance standards. You want productive people, pay them for it.

Essentially, all I here is that people are not doing their job because they think they're underpaid. The truth is, your paid what the "weakest" member is worth, which is not much IMO.

I'd much rather have my pilot worrying about his performance to get promoted rather than just going through the motions wondering when someone above him will retire.

As an office worker, I have hard time fathoming the usefulness of a union. I'm paid well because I perform well. People who don't perform well are fired, or at least aren't promoted. I don't b;itch when my boss asks me to do a job that isn't my primary responsibility. I do what I'm asked because I know it reflects well on me. Unions negate this because extra effort is never rewarded, and underachieving is rarely punished.

Now I'm expecting 50 people to tell me how this wouldn't work as airlines are a different business, but stop drinking your own union kool-aid and think about it. What has the union ever gotten for you in terms of rewarding you for performance?

I'm sure many will say that management will just fire everyone and hire the cheapest alternative. Perhaps, but this would be a much quicker education for them than this painful death now.....and I can bet you that they will be calling all the managers asking who was worthwhile so they can hire them back...and then, when you're needed, that's when you'll get the respect and pay that you deserve.

Remember, in order for Doug to get his golden parachute as many of you feel is the end goal, he needs an operating airline.

The problem with performance bonuses and merit raises is they can be manipulated , unpredictable and are a popularity contest. The bonuses and merit raises are a budget item, so its already known who is getting what amount and that decsision has has high amount of subjectivity. What is left over in the budget is then given to managers and the supervisors. Before the CWA came on to the premises, US Airways reservations department was contemplating merit raises. I consistently achieved or exceeded the goals set, but my supervisor intentionaly failed to recognize my accomplishments. She would manipulate the stats on the agents she didn't care for ( she should have valued agents who made her performance look good). Agents would also pad their stats for ticketing and bookings to meet performance goals. Also, management kept raising the performance requirements, so essentially they were setting up a given number employees for failure. Reservations, customer service and the ramp should have been union represented soon after de-regulation, perhaps those groups would have experienced a softer landing during the turbulent times.Although unions need to start focusing on being more effective, I would rather work in a union represented establishment than nonunion,even, if it protects the slackers. As union membership declines you can see the effect on union and non-union employees; more people uninsured or underinsured, no pensions, working longer hours or more than one job, and a decline in wages.

IMO- US Airway's decline started when Wolfe stepped on the premises. He was determined to destroy US Airways. He took a profitable employee friendly airline and changed the company culture for the worse.

Also like Diogenes, I don't shop at Wal-mart, nor do I support companies who are proponents of that type of business model.

 

[Black Magic]

UP,

Come on back with facts.

Look at the most heavily unionized airline, Southwest.

Gee, they are the highest paid in the industry and the most profitable for over 30 years straight.

Explain that one?

One more thing, why is ok for Doug and the rest of the executives to have employment contracts and you dont think the rank and file should?

Yes but they also have the lowest operating costs which equal more money for everyone.

 

[galley princess]

Companies that have unions deserve them.

 

[dash8roa]

The pdt mechanics have been going round and round for three years and no contract.The ibt and before the iam did nothing to benefit the dues paying members.Now the pdt parts people voted for the ibt and after one year the proposed contract allows for a raise that will cover the dues!Not only is union powerless,but the company shows their true colors by stepping all over the employees

The only way is to walk out such as the new york transit workers did and the contract issue was settled after a few days.

Many are looking for new jobs and some have found them.The parts dept starting wage is less than fast food wages. Look at the number of posts on usaviation dealing with usair,the highest number,the worst moral,and the poorest upper level management.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

I am not brain washed by union philosophy.

Unions are necessary in the airline industry, you cant compare retail, finance etc to the airlines.

Do you know that airline workers have the second highest injury rate than any other job except farming?

In the industry it is very manual labor intense, and yes I did you brown nose in a bad way because it is the truth.

I seen slackers get away with anything and everything when I was non-union years ago at PI, as long as they took care of the supervisor they got away with being lazy, while the hard working employees had to work even harder to pick up the slack.

Since you have never worked in the environment you wont understand the dynamics of it.

US use to have workers that cleaned the planes, do you realize when the plane is sitting at the gate and the FAs are "tiding up" or boarding they don't get paid?

Unions were started hundreds of years ago to eliminate company towns and the feudal system.

You also failed to address why is OK for Executives to have an employment contract and not the rank and file who bust their butts everyday to keep the operation going.

There is no sense of entitlement from the unionized workers, but they want a guarantee of pay, benefits, pension and etc like the executives have.

Don't you know DL use to pay more than the unionized carriers to keep their employees from unionizing?
Why do companies spend millions during organizing drives to prevent unions from coming on the property?

Look at WN, they have the highest percentage of unionized workforce, they are the highest paid and most profitable airline, they have not lost money in over 30 years.

There is a reason why the industry is so heavily unionized and it is to level the playing field and have a collective voice.

You had people get killed in the US in order to protect the workers' right to form a union.

If there was no union the company would use the employees as whipping boys as they try to do now, at least the union can protect the workers as best as they can. Unfortunately they have used 9/11 and Bankruptcy to gut the employees way of life.

What blows you back on your tailfins is that even the anti-union DL employees recognize this:

"The majority of us believe that the threat of a union is better than actually having a union. Historically, Delta has paid us a premium to remain non union. We all know that."

http://deltafa.org/afa_member_welcome_page.htm


.....amazing.

 

[sharktooth]

If the airline business was a brand new invention today, the employees would most certainly not be unionized and everyone would be better off.

Yeah, I cannot think of a single industry that started out with unions. So, what is your point?

The rancor on this board is through the airline industry (and also the Steel, Auto, Phone Companies etc.) and that is mostly union driven. The guiding union theme these days is to show their members the value of the union they must make it and us vs. them environment.

Unions at US don't have to show anything. The rancor is almost solely due to employees (as well as customers) seeing management incompetence in action. It is giving up lots of compensation, and management becoming more incompetent than before, in spite of promises to the contrary.

Unions also do bunch of silly things like protecting bad employees or even crooks & putting minutia into contracts that sap productivity.

I have yet to see a union "protect a bad employee", as if, legally, they could. I am reminded of the FA stowaway that was terminated and the union reminded management that eleven other documented events happened similar to the one in question and not one stowaway was fired. What about the pilot who had to call in sick when he had to go to the emergency room on the day management thinks there was an organized slowdown and was given seven days suspension?

Perhaps you think management is so bad that the union should step in an help fire employees? I am certain Doug would love that, gaining a level of "supervisors" paid with employee dues?

Putting minutia in contracts, like safety items or items that actually allow the company to work more efficiently? Like the unions asking the company to stagger shifts so that there are not two sets of crews trying to simultaneously get through security, punch-in/punch-out and park their cars in limited parking that is repeatedly turned down by management.

Unions should lobby to change the laws and they should self-police. The union should have higher standards then the company. They should be kicking the dead weight out of the union not defending them.

So, you are saying unions should use dues monies to lobby to get laws changed (they only represent less than 10% of the workforce)? So, independent of the Human Resources Dept. the union should determine who is worthwhile to continue to work at the company and fire them? Should they collaborate with the company to get their member(s) fired without a hearing? They should defend those they like and not defend those they do not?

Thankfully the laws in our country do not allow that to happen with anyone other than the moronic President.

Also the whole concept of pay by seniority is bad for almost all involved. It is only good for the lumps on the log that ride the wave. It offers no flexibility for employees or the company and eventually over time it's ultimate fact will kill the entire industry.

You certainly must mean "Seniority" as determined by DOH or LOS is what gives you incontinence? I am thinking of the spastic attempt by Circuit City to cut costs by firing all the senior sales people, not understanding that experience of the sales force is what brought people into their stores. Even the Wall Street Journal didn't have much patience for that tomfoolery.

It is experience with one company that allows those employees with the most experience to temporarily boost productivity or safely cover for management missteps. When that temporary boost becomes a permanent management expectation, a union provides a device to remind management of the reason for the rules in the first place and saves the company the cost of, at worst, a strike.

Flexibility can be traded for career security using the seniority device, preventing a company from firing an employee just before they become vested in their retirement. Happens all the time at non-union companies.

Show me an industry with a very senior and unionized work force that thrives?

Um, SWA or 3M? ALPA National? Hotel and casino workers in LAS? Parsons Corporation or Avery? Boeing? Many public school systems turn out better educated students than even some private schools, much less charter or homeschooled "graduates". With a tiny bit of work you too can find evidence that your assertions are ignorant and foolish.

I wouldn’t expect most of the union members on this board to be able to put their emotions aside and try to look at this question logically.

Your expectations are a fantasy and your logic flows from irrational and ignorant starting points and therefore is wrong from the git-go. I think the union members here are quite able to put aside their emotions. The question is, can you?

FINAL PARAGRAPH DELETED BY MODERATOR--Let's NOT insult people please....

 

[Hadenough]

To me the question of union or non-union is just like voting for a President. Do I trust management? Do I need a union? Do I vote candidate #1 or candidate #2? In the end neither is a good choice so I am forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.

 

[vantheman63]

Unions are not the problem. How management regards, negotiates with and treat unions and their membership is.

Interesting thread and discussion.

I think the quote above is completely accurate.

That being said, for me personally, being part of a union wouldn't work in today's environment because I would not want to be held back and managed to the lowest common denominator....and if I felt or thought I were being held back, I'd move on and do something else. But that's just me and my personality.

In many ways, I believe a company that hates its employees the way US Airways does might in fact need the union more then the union needs the company. The reason I say that is the company's management can grind away and manage costs via a "union contract." Think about that for just a moment.

My grandfather was a union leader in the UAW. Served for 10 years as the Local President of his chapter. The hall in GRR is named after him. Some of the stories he told us when GM was gearing up were just COMPLETELY outrageous. There was most certainly a time and a place, no doubt.

In today's environment, it's different. There are Federal Laws in place to prevent much of the abuse people like my Grandfather suffered. It brings some credence and credibility to the OP. The reality is, a person CAN leave and strike out and do something else. A job is not, can not and should not be guaranteed. I will promise ANYONE with a 1,000% degree of certainty, there is more to be made then a 3% raise or a paycut or even a 10% raise over X # of years of a contract.

And there are some excellent points as well by the "rank and file." I personally, as a business owner, happen to be, more or less appalled by the outrageous pay that CEOs and other senior management receive in comparison to the people they leverage off, the rank and file. The most amazing, horriffic example is Glenn Tilton and his band ot thieves at UA. And I happen to think Mr. Parker and his group are WAY over compensated as well.

My final thought is, "change is healthy and good." I completely disagree with the idea that "unions are necessary because it's always been that way." I believe change can accomplish a great deal. I'm not so sure the management at US Airways isn't using the unions more then ever to get what they want.

 

[flyinawa]

To the flight attendant who complained of cleaning a lavatory (in another thread)....I used to manage a retail store, when a customer pissed on the seat of a toilet, I went in there and cleaned it (certainly not my job). I could have hired a full time lavatory cleaner, but that would have been useless costs, eating into my stores profit. Instead, I kept the place clean to offer the customer the best experience possible, so hopefully they would return, MAKING more money. If we made more money, I got a bigger bonus, bigger salary. See a little extra work does have rewards....but only when I'm not in some arbitrary contract that negates that extra effort.

I am the 1st one to step up and do those sorts of above and beyond things...but I can't do it all the time. I have my own responsibilities to take care of.

My dad just retired after a career with the Teacher's Union. He had a saying, "no good deed goes unpunished". For example, if everytime we are short staffed on the ramp I skipped getting dinner and went down and helped load bags and we got out on time...... then as far as the company is concerned we're not short staffed on the ramp are we? So they never fix it.

Do you ever wonder why there is only 1 gate agent a lot of the time? Some IDIOT bean counter figured they could save the company money be reducing staff. They never actually spoke with an agent about what their duties were so they don't understand staffing requirements. The bean counter probably got some kind of etched glass award to put on his desk for "innovative thinking" and the management guys probably got some bonuses for saving money in operations.

Who got screwed? You, the passenger. Do you think our management cares if you get pissed off and won't fly with us anymore? Not if someone will take your place and fill the seat. So in a round about way....that's why we need unions. Uuuuuuh.....this went totally off base. What were we talking about again?

 

[aerosmith]

No Union? Not only would they stick it in but they would break it off also.