What if there were NO unions?

I am on the fence about unions. Certainly, as a non-union employee, I was abused by many a management team during my airline career. Pay cut here. Benefit loss there. No more pension. Those GD PDOs. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The one thing I wish is that salary increases were determined by merit and job performance, rather than seniority. If I bust my butt, and you don't, why should we both be paid the same thing?
 
If I recall Delta was considered to be the best non-union company for ramp employees many years ago most other airline labor union groups made less pay but still had protection in writing. It was a few years later the Delta rampers found out the hard way when the company contracted out about 80 percent of the ramp leaving only a hand full of stations with Delta main ramp. The bottom line is when the good ole boy management decide it was us or them they cut thousands of worker lines.

With USAirways mangement followed a play book to decert the ramp by hiring a union busting firm they spent millons of dollars paying to this firm. When they were successful the company re couped its loss in legal fees by ripping off the fleet service group. To this day even after 20 years Fleet Service and re organinzing the workers are still trying to recoup it loses. But now we have it from both sides with a greedy company and a union leadership that would rather play ball with them then do whats right for its members,
 
How about when Circuit City fired all their employees and forced them to apply for the same jobs at lesser pay?
 
back2CLT,

There are two things that created the comfortable working conditions you enjoy - the New Deal and unions. Revisionist history and corporate media PR obscures those facts, but facts they are.

In the 70's I worked a p/t minimum wage job that paid my rent, food, tuition and transportation costs. I thought I was doing it all by myself and voted for Reagan.

Can you cover those costs with a p/t minimum wage job now? Not a chance!

I came to understand my buying power in the 70's was a result of public policy (a meaningful minimum wage, affordable college tuition) derived from FDR's vision and the impact of unions.

Now to US specifically: Employee relations were so bad in the 90's at US, the two remaining non-union employee groups organized. My station, all southerners, mostly republican, voted 100% union.
 
If we had a management we could trust, a NO UNION set-up could possibly work. But since we cannot trust our management AT ALL, it would never work out.
 
How about when Circuit City fired all their employees and forced them to apply for the same jobs at lesser pay?

That is a wonderful example of showing the stupidity of management that thinks they can make greater profits by cutting the pay and benefits of their front line employees.

I recently was in the market for a new computer and stopped at a local Circuit City where I had previously had many chats about computers with their best guru. (He worked part time for benefits because he had his own consulting business.) Well, when I walked in the store I asked for him and an employee working that area said he had been fired "because he had been making $16.00 per hour." That was it, that was the whole reason. This new guy had just about zero real computer knowledge and I promptly walked out of the store. When I got home I saw that Circuit City had just that day announced their most recently quarterly results and they were quite bad. A number of websites laid the blame squarely on management decisions to save money by getting rid of higher paid employees and forgetting that those employees had more product knowledge, customer following and loyalty to the company (until they got fired) then the folks they ended up with as employees after the purge. One report said that many of the fired employees were hired immeditaely by Best Buy. Look at paragraph three of this link.

Now, to keep the moderators happy, let me do the obvious. Doesn't this Circuit City management debacle sound an awfully lot like some of the things that have been coming out of Tempe? I would suspect that Art, Piney, L4P and the Ffocus crowd, as well as the employees would give a resounding yes to that. As for unions, let's just say that I absolutely agree they are needed in the majority of cases within airline business.
 
I'm just a retarded semi-frequent flyer who works an office job who travels for both business and leisure....just though I should qualify myself.

As an office worker, I have hard time fathoming the usefulness of a union. I'm paid well because I perform well. People who don't perform well are fired, or at least aren't promoted. I don't b;itch when my boss asks me to do a job that isn't my primary responsibility. I do what I'm asked because I know it reflects well on me. Unions negate this because extra effort is never rewarded, and underachieving is rarely punished.

Remember, in order for Doug to get his golden parachute as many of you feel is the end goal, he needs an operating airline.

#1 You state, although I'm guessing jokingly'' that I'm just a retarded semi-frequent flyer ''.
In qualifying yourself in that respect you are not a member of the rank and file who have seen the
best of times and the worst of times. So though you like many others are indeed entitled to your opinion
but you should note that you are not in the mix as far as what the employees have been through and continue to go through.

#2 Congrats' on having a well paying job and feeling happy in your work enviroment. Most, not all of the airline employees do work and perform well but when the airline continue to expand and the hiring practices were offering a good start rate along with the contract the union an company provided you could see what the job offered and the industry was a much sought after career choice. Now, when the cuts and slash's took place the hiring fell far below what was offered prior to these changes and the people seeking employment with the company were not what was considered your pick of the litter type of workers. That old addage ''you get what you pay for'' started to apply. The senior workers too never bitched or complained when they were asked to deviate from thier supposed work functions to assist in another area but these same employees are now treated with a bias associated with what management and corporate see as a lower caliber of person. This company went from a ''hey can you get me an interview'' to a incentive driven hiring practice. People would be awarded slightly if they could get someone to apply, get hired and remain employed for a certain term.

#3 You do not have to remind us of what Doug Parker and the others will get or are gonna get based on the airlines success or failure they are certainly not in a position to worry about the ''parachute''. They are very well compensted and continually recieve bonus's and cash heavy Contracts.

As an afternote I'd like to ask you if we questioned any bitterness you may hold if you had your pay and benifits severly impacted and yet still saw no signs of your upper management and corporate taking the cuts that impacted you would you still feel happy. We see the numbers every quarter and along with those numbers we see and hear from a company talking of record profits and the pay scale for management increases continually, yet the company refuses to take care of the worker. So although unions can be seen as a unneeded represenitive to some as a group they represent the whole. We work together as a group or unit and need representation to bargain for us as the needs of the few are the needs of the many in most cases. We do not work individually but as a chain of different department each one relying on the other to help in keeping the other working and operating smoothly. If one slips the chain of events from that point on is effected.

You indicate you work as an individual whose own performance dictates your compensation. We do not have that luxury. We,be it fair or unjust work as a group and need representation from members in our work group , elected by our work group, to seek the changes that should be reflected in our performance and the profits that the company incurs. We try to maintain a good public image but the wages and benifits offered by the company for employment are seriously infecting this........sorry, if you do not see the need for union representation but to be frank your not seeing the whole picture. Your only reading and seeing it through your eyes. I prefer union representation as to the alternative of leaving me at the will of the company.

Thanks

Also, just so you know after I typed in this post I had risen from my chair walked away hunched over for the first few steps and gingerly on my feet til my back and knees loosened up a bit because after 20+ years of loading and unloading A/C's my body has and continues to pay a price and what number could one place on that...............
 
hp fa,

Exactly so, and why I've added CC, along with a longstanding ban on WalMart, to the list of places I don't patronize.

And to all:

Here's a nice thought experiment. How nice would it be if all working stiffs organized, and boycotted one outfit permanently? Hitting the SOB's in the wallet is the ONLY way to get their attention (as has been said, "...you can't nice these people to death.").

To me Exxon would be a great start. You can buy your gas other places.

Why Exxon? Compare these stories.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...22/b3986066.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1841989


This nutshells why working folks are struggling.

Keep the implications in mind - what Exxon is doing is legal.

So time for some lawmakers that actually give a fig about us.

(Hint: There is one running for higher office! ;) )
 
I don't patronize Exxon after the half billion dollar retirement of their last chairman, however the one place that I would most like to see fall into the furthest reaches of hell is Wal-Mart. It is a hands-down choice for my most despised list.
 
If the airline business was a brand new invention today, the employees would most certainly not be unionized and everyone would be better off.
The rancor on this board is through the airline industry (and also the Steel, Auto, Phone Companies etc.) and that is mostly union driven. The guiding union theme these days is to show their members the value of the union they must make it and us vs. them environment.
Unions also do bunch of silly things like protecting bad employees or even crooks & putting minutia into contracts that sap productivity. Unions should lobby to change the laws and they should self-police. The union should have higher standards then the company. They should be kicking the dead weight out of the union not defending them.
Also the whole concept of pay by seniority is bad for almost all involved. It is only good for the lumps on the log that ride the wave. It offers no flexibility for employees or the company and eventually over time it's ultimate fact will kill the entire industry. Show me an industry with a very senior and unionized work force that thrives?
I wouldn’t expect most of the union members on this board to be able to put their emotions aside and try to look at this question logically.
 
One of my favorite Union examples wa the Safeway, Apple Tree strike in Texas in the early 80's. Texas Safeway had a prolonged meat cutters strike, they eventualy went BK. The union bought the company and change the name to Apple Tree within a year or two they had another huge strike and went BK again. What that show is it doen't matter who is managment and who are the workers in our current world they must be dynamicaly opposed and how can any bussiness succed like that?

And to all you Union guys that think managment is evil and bad what keeps any Union with all their power, resources and Political Connections from going out and starting a competitor in any of the heavy union industries that would treat the workers (and the customers too) the right way? Why does it take a business man and a bunch of bankers to start Jet blue why couldn't a union do that?
 
Airlines are one of the highest unionized industries in the US because management would rape and pillage the employees.

As opposed to what's happened to everyone at USAir?

You honestly expect someone to believe you when you claim "it could have been worse without our worthless union?"

Your post goes in the Laugh of the Day category.
 
Yes it could have been worse, look back at what Lorenzo did at CO when the law permitted him to rip up the CBAs and not even negotiate with them.

Look at, DL they laid off the majority of fleet service and outsourced their work, closed down the DFW hangar and sent the planes to vendors to be overhauled.

I dont know about you, but I would rather have a voice and a vote on what happens to my CBA then be a whipping post for the company.

I guess you failed to realize the employees at US gave two rounds of concessions in the first bankruptcy, the only left to give up was jobs.

And it took a court ordererd abrogation to accomplish that.

And UPANDAWAY, you are totally of base, there is a reason why airlines are so heavily unionized and I guess you also fail to comprehend that the companies agree to everything in the CBAs, you know it is called negotiations.

Management cannot be trusted it has been show time after after time.

Look at the IAM and US, after two rounds of concessions agreed to US outsourced IAM covered work, which was settled in arbitration and the union prevailed. The ink was barely dry on the concessions and the company violated the CBA.

I can give numerous examples of how management cannot be trusted.

Shall I continue?
 
Management cannot be trusted it has been show time after after time.

Look at the IAM and US, after two rounds of concessions agreed to US outsourced IAM covered work, which was settled in arbitration and the union prevailed. The ink was barely dry on the concessions and the company violated the CBA.

I can give numerous examples of how management cannot be trusted.

Shall I continue?
[/quote]


Go start a better company? You can do it the unins could do it?
But my guess is if you did start your own succesful unionized company it wouldn't be to long before you and the union where being counter productive and not working together. That is all I am saying.