What Now?
- Thread starter Bagbelt
- Start date
aafsc said:
I hear they are trying not to do that. I don't know how they think they can't with so many people bailing out per month. I am not going to fly around understaffed for the next 3 years so they don't have to call them back and so they can get used to having minimum crew working the flights forever after. No thanks.
I can huff and puff all I want though because APFA has probably already signed off on that one too. The sad thing is that they probably don't even know they did.
Skymess said:
While its despicable I can see a motive for not calling back TWA flight attendants.
As AA calls back the laid off ex-TWA FAs they will be calling back the most senior FAs first. That means Max vacation accrual and Max sick time. The company probably doesnt want to call them back because they will have to pay them all that vacation time after a year and most will probably avail themselves to all that sick time they have in the bank.
If they max out at 120 sick days and six weeks of vacation these FAS can come back on payroll and call in sick for six months, work for six months then put in on Jan 1 to retire after their six weeks of vacation. If they leave them out on the street till they get sick of waiting and just put in to retire all they have to give them is $25/day (if you have the same terms as the TWU) or $3000. So its a difference of $3000 vs at least $24,000.
Bob Owens said:
Part of the purchase agreement stated they had to work AA for 5 years before they were eligible for full retirement.
AA doesn't want them back because they are topped out on the pay scale, because they aren't spring chickens, because they weren't hired by AA people, and because they are a wild card in terms of what their attitudes will be like due to the way seniority was done.
There are a zillion problems in all of the other work groups now between the TWA and AA people and they don't want the headaches with another work group. All of the reasons may not be politically correct reasons but are the realistic reasons whether anyone likes it or not.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
You left out one of the most important reasons. We require at least three weeks of training before we can fly AA equipment.Bob Owens said:
Most of the other reasons given by you and others are true, but they're true of your own people as well. AA has thousands of senior people who could use up all their sick time and then retire, but in fact most of them don't do that. And max vacation since the concessions is only four weeks.
As far as attitude is concerned, there will be those few who come back with a chip on their shoulder, but I think most of us will try to blend in and make the best of it. I don't want to fight for the rest of my life. Most of us are still here because we love the job and want to come back to it.
It's going to be very difficult for AA to avoid recalling us as there are only 99 natives ahead of us at this point. There hasn't been a recall since just prior to last Thanksgiving, and attrition will total close to a thousand by the time this Thanksgiving rolls around. If it doesn't happen this year then certainly a large number of us will be recalled by next spring.
Half the people senior to me (Apr 1972) have quit already and more will quit when they receive their recall letters. It's likely many of the junior people will lose their recall rights when their five years is up. So I predict the number of us who actually return to the line will probably only be about 1500 or so, maybe even less. We won't even make a ripple across the system.
MK
jimntx
Veteran
MOUNT KISCO said:
Trust me, the a$$es are not too "little", they are too few.
There are 5 basic body sizes: small, medium, large, extra large, and Oh-my-god-it's- moving-our-way. It seems that every day on the airplane, we are seeing more and more of the last 2 categories.
jimntx
Veteran
Bob Owens said:
Bob, flight attendants do not accrue sick leave or vacation in paid days. For instance, according to our current contract, a flight attendant accrues 5 hours of sick leave per month of active service (this may have changed in the RPA concessions, but I have no way of looking that up)--and if you fly less than 35 hours in a given month, you do not accrue sick leave for that month. And, the sick leave is not usable until the following calendar year. Every year in January, your sick leave bank is credited with the sick leave you earned the previous year. The available bank does not increase during the calendar year.
When a f/a returns from furlough, the sick leave in their bank is whatever was there at the time he/she was furloughed. The bank will not increase until January of the year following recall.
Vacation is accrued in weeks, but...I do not get two weeks paid vacation per year like people with "real" jobs. I am awarded a vacation period based on my seniority. (We bid for vacation slots in March each year for the next "vacation" year which runs from 01April current year until 31March next year.)
The AMOUNT of vacation awarded is based upon the number of days earned in the previous calendar year. For instance, I returned to the line 17NOV04. My first earned vacation will be 2 days in February, 2006. So, because we were all paid for any accrued but unused vacation when we were furloughed, if there is a recall in January, 2006, those f/as recalled will be eligible to bid for vacation in March, 2007 for the 01APR07-31MAR08 vacation year.
Now let's say I am awarded the first two or last two weeks in February--I can only bid FEB AB or FEB CD; I can not bid FEB BC. During my two weeks vacation next February, I am paid only for the trips that fall within that two weeks. Days off during the vacation are not paid. If on reserve during my vacation month, I am paid so many hours of flight pay for the days I would have otherwise been available to the company for reserve flying. Days off during that period are not paid. So, in real terms, next February I have to hope I can hold a line that has a trip falling on at least one of those two days I have accrued or I will in reality, donate my vacation back to the company.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
Luckily category 5 a$$es only hit the mainline two or three times a year. I remember my last category 5. She came on with two boarding passes, 41-1 for her left cheek and 41-2 for the right. I think her name was Katrina.jimntx said:Trust me, the a$$es are not too "little", they are too few.
There are 5 basic sizes: small, medium, large, extra large, and Oh-my-god-it's- moving-our-way. It seems that every day on the airplane, we are seeing more and more of the last 2 categories.
[post="304375"][/post]
MK
jimntx
Veteran
MK, I still think there is something bogus about that. I "trained" on the TW 757 with a 2 hour home study. I don't know why the company does not develop home study courses for the AA a/c. You might still need a week of hands on stuff at the charm farm, but 3 weeks? I don't think so. It's not like none of you have ever worked on an airplane before.kirkpatrick said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the former TW flight attendants that I have had the privilege of meeting so far are any indication of the typical TW flight attendant, I would much rather fly with most of you than some of the nAAtive senior f/as I have to put up with now.kirkpatrick said:
And, the argument about most of the former TW flight attendants being at the top of the pay scale is REALLY bogus. The majority of active flight attendants are at top of scale right now. So, what's the difference?
As of the June seniority list, of approx. 19,000 active flight attendants, 12,800 are at top of scale. Within 5 years, 15,000 of the 19,000 will be at top of scale. Just this year, they have had 17-year f/as having to serve reserve at DFW.
Even if all 4,000 of the currently furloughed flight attendants lost their recall rights, and the company started hiring again. How many new-hires can they handle a year? 2,000? So, we would have 15,000-17,000 flight attendants at top of scale and 2,000 at new hire pay. I don't see a significant savings, do you?
kirkpatrick
Veteran
The concessions lowered it to three hours per month and eliminated rapid reaccrual. It's all on the APFA website, or you could cut and paste the following to a convenient location:jimntx said:
1. Vacation - Reduce vacation by 33%. For the top, this means a reduction from 42 days to 28. Savings to AA: $42 M - Head count loss: 682 F/A’s (Joke No. 1 – John reported that he was “able to get something over on the Co.†because even though senior F/A’s were giving up 14 days in vacation, they got “unlimited†PVD’s). It gets worse.
2. Eliminate pre-vacation “48’s†- $11 M Head count loss: 181
3. Reduce per diem to $1.50 Domestic/$1.75 Intl. Savings: $13 M
4. Reduce “premium†rates by 50% - eliminate longevity, NB lead, night pay, reserve override – the 7/1/03 purser pay raise is eliminated. $21 M savings
5. Change layover rest to FAA minimums - $19 M savings. Head count reduction: 166
6. Eliminate benefits for OVL leaves – the only thing a F/A accrues is seniority, the only thing kept is passes (COBRA payments for insurance) No vacation accrual
7. Minimum annual hourly threshold to accrue and receive benefits $2 M savings 294 headcount reduction
8. Eliminate Article 6E Vacation Benefits (2 months accrual of vacation) $4 M – headcount reduction 71
9. Eliminate crew meals on all flights: $7 M
10. Reduce sick leave accrual to 3 hrs./mo., eliminate rapid reaccrual $10 M in savings – headcount reduction 60
11. Increase trip selection maximum to 77 (Domestic) 82 (Intl) – Monthly maximum 80 (Domestic)/85 (Intl); pure bid lines may be built to 82 (Dom)/87 (Intl); make-up to 85 (Dom)/90 (Intl) - $7M - Headcount reduction: 387
12. Incentive cut in to begin after 69 hours (instead of 67) - $5 M savings
13. Eliminate all paid holidays - $5 M (Joke No. 2 – John made a point of saying that it wasn’t “eliminated†– it was just “waivedâ€). In other words, it remained in the CBA – but F/A’s wouldn’t receive it. The end result is the same – no paid holidays.
14. Eliminate EPT training pay up to 12 hours (instead of the current 8 hrs.) $1M Savings
15. Modify uniform point system (18 to 12, reduced PT, no carryover) - $2M savings
16. Eliminate underfly (F/A’s receive actual – not scheduled flt. time) - $20 M savings
17. 100% Deadhead Pay/50% credit - $2 M savings – 39 head count reduction
18. Eliminate IOD salary continuance - $1 M
19. Eliminate “last trip of month protection†– it goes back to 5 days from 7 days - $6M
20. Eliminate furlough pay - $6M (More on this below)
21. Eliminate part-time program - $3 M – 350 headcount reduction
22. Reduce lineholder guarantee to 70 hours - $2 M
The total work rule savings are “valued†at 198 MM. The total headcount reduction is 2,391.
Wait – before you panic – keep reading
15.6% paycut – “valued†at $153 MM (More on THIS later)
Change in Medical/Dental Benefits: $8 M (The current payment doubles)
Let me add that number 16, underfly, was later dropped in exchange for duty rig changes. Also, all comments in the above are from Sherry Cooper, as I clipped that from one of her posts on the TWA board.
jimntx
Veteran
Gee, thanks, MK. I was already depressed about the hurricane. I own a house in Houston. You just had to destroy my child-like belief that the concessions "weren't that bad", didn't you?
kirkpatrick
Veteran
Jim, it isn't just the aircraft, it's the systems and procedures. When the 23 TWA people were trained for the purpose of merging the seniority lists, it was three five-day weeks. We've been told we will be trained on the three basic aircraft; MD80, 757 and 767. If we're able to hold any other equipment our base may fly, it will be handled later (you recently explained the trigger training concept).jimntx said:
I don't think AA wants to spend a penny more than necessary, and believe me, I don't want to go through three weeks away from home and my family. We'll see what they come up with.
I've pointed that out myself. And many more are very close to the top. In fact, this is the real difference between AA and the LCC's. AA mainline newhires start at less than $20 per hour. It's the percentage of FA's at the extreme ends of the scale that make the real difference between AA and SW and JB, not the rates themselves. That's what happens when a company grows quickly: most of the people are new. When a company shrinks or stagnates, the average seniority skyrockets.
No. Our recall is not based on budget or profitability. Even if AA were making money hand over fist, they wouldn't keep one FA more than they needed on the payroll. We'll be recalled when needed.
MK
