The unions are coming, the unions are coming!

[LukeAisleWalker]

I Just want to make the best decision and that is selfish I know. I have no animosity (sp) towards any NW f/a's but I dont want to make a choice about the union and then have it bite me in the ass. Delta is offering early retirements as we speak, and if we have a lot of senior people leave and then we merge DOH then that could really affect my senority. Does that make sense? what would you do in the same situation? wouldnt you be a little curious that you might come out a little better if Delta negotiated you a better ranking than date of hire? Delta has always tried to take care of thier people in the past. At least from what I can see.

I will preface my response with as I understand it by my research (Danny please feel free to correct me if necessary):

I don't think you're understanding the process since the Fair & Equitable law was passed a few months ago. You're trying to base your decision on Delta's most recent mergers/acquisitions: The 1986/87 merger with Western involved Delta, staffed by 6500 f/a's at the time, merging w/ Western with approx 2,000 f/a's at the time. Except for the top 300 (very senior) Delta f/a's, EVERYONE else was basically ranked by date of hire. (This NW situation has both f/a groups being closer in size.)
The PanAm situation was an acquistion of assets. PanAm f/a's that were interested in employment with Delta, were interviewed by Delta, and then based on their quals, were offered positions. It was not a complete merger. At the time, many PanAm fa's chose to stay on at PanAm (the SouthAmerican unit Delta was supposed to keep afloat until they decided it lost too much money). Because of this unique situation, PanAm f/a's did indeed lose out on the seniroity list. But again..they interviewed for positions.
This NW situation is completely different. Remember, Delta has said that if a mutually-agreed upon list cannot be created, it will go to arbitration. You keep saying "If Delta negotiated a better ranking"...This, common sense tell us, wouldn't happen, based inherently on the fact that it favors DL and therefore, it would be turned down by NW and therefore turned over to an arbitrator. Now, the arbitrator MAY decide to go with a list that favors more DL f/a's than NW, this is true, but we just don't know.
So basically, your choice is between a vote for AFA which, if it passes, will guarantee date of hire OR...the decision of an arbitrator, NOT Delta's "negotiating a better ranking."

 

[cooper43]

I will preface my response with as I understand it by my research (Danny please feel free to correct me if necessary):

I don't think you're understanding the process since the Fair & Equitable law was passed a few months ago. You're trying to base your decision on Delta's most recent mergers/acquisitions: The 1986/87 merger with Western involved Delta, staffed by 6500 f/a's at the time, merging w/ Western with approx 2,000 f/a's at the time. Except for the top 300 (very senior) Delta f/a's, EVERYONE else was basically ranked by date of hire. (This NW situation has both f/a groups being closer in size.)
The PanAm situation was an acquistion of assets. PanAm f/a's that were interested in employment with Delta, were interviewed by Delta, and then based on their quals, were offered positions. It was not a complete merger. At the time, many PanAm fa's chose to stay on at PanAm (the SouthAmerican unit Delta was supposed to keep afloat until they decided it lost too much money). Because of this unique situation, PanAm f/a's did indeed lose out on the seniroity list. But again..they interviewed for positions.
This NW situation is completely different. Remember, Delta has said that if a mutually-agreed upon list cannot be created, it will go to arbitration. You keep saying "If Delta negotiated a better ranking"...This, common sense tell us, wouldn't happen, based inherently on the fact that it favors DL and therefore, it would be turned down by NW and therefore turned over to an arbitrator. Now, the arbitrator MAY decide to go with a list that favors more DL f/a's than NW, this is true, but we just don't know.
So basically, your choice is between a vote for AFA which, if it passes, will guarantee date of hire OR...the decision of an arbitrator, NOT Delta's "negotiating a better ranking."/quote]



Are you saying that NW's f/a's will not negotiate in good faith and that the only thing they are willing to except is DOH even if it is a disadvantage to most DL f/a's? I just believe before we say that DOH is the most fair we should be able to sit down and look at things first. I have no idea which way will favor one side or the other, however I still favor a process that allows for a time to negotiate what is fair for all not just some. It may turn out that DOH is the most fair but it also may turn out that it is not. The Pilots are not going strictly by date of hire. In my opinion DL has had a history of being fair. Even if our CEO is formally NWA doesnt mean that all of a sudden he is going to favor NW f/a's. I just want to be fair for all of us that is the only way this will work. If DOH turns out to be the most even or fair for all parties then I will support.

 

[cooper43]

I will preface my response with as I understand it by my research (Danny please feel free to correct me if necessary):

I don't think you're understanding the process since the Fair & Equitable law was passed a few months ago. You're trying to base your decision on Delta's most recent mergers/acquisitions: The 1986/87 merger with Western involved Delta, staffed by 6500 f/a's at the time, merging w/ Western with approx 2,000 f/a's at the time. Except for the top 300 (very senior) Delta f/a's, EVERYONE else was basically ranked by date of hire. (This NW situation has both f/a groups being closer in size.)
The PanAm situation was an acquistion of assets. PanAm f/a's that were interested in employment with Delta, were interviewed by Delta, and then based on their quals, were offered positions. It was not a complete merger. At the time, many PanAm fa's chose to stay on at PanAm (the SouthAmerican unit Delta was supposed to keep afloat until they decided it lost too much money). Because of this unique situation, PanAm f/a's did indeed lose out on the seniroity list. But again..they interviewed for positions.
This NW situation is completely different. Remember, Delta has said that if a mutually-agreed upon list cannot be created, it will go to arbitration. You keep saying "If Delta negotiated a better ranking"...This, common sense tell us, wouldn't happen, based inherently on the fact that it favors DL and therefore, it would be turned down by NW and therefore turned over to an arbitrator. Now, the arbitrator MAY decide to go with a list that favors more DL f/a's than NW, this is true, but we just don't know.
So basically, your choice is between a vote for AFA which, if it passes, will guarantee date of hire OR...the decision of an arbitrator, NOT Delta's "negotiating a better ranking."/quote]




Are you saying that NW's f/a's will not negotiate in good faith and that the only thing they are willing to except is DOH even if it is a disadvantage to most DL f/a's? I just believe before we say that DOH is the most fair we should be able to sit down and look at things first. I have no idea which way will favor one side or the other, however I still favor a process that allows for a time to negotiate what is fair for all not just some. It may turn out that DOH is the most fair but it also may turn out that it is not. The Pilots are not going strictly by date of hire. In my opinion DL has had a history of being fair. Even if our CEO is formally NWA doesnt mean that all of a sudden he is going to favor NW f/a's. I just want to be fair for all of us that is the only way this will work. If DOH turns out to be the most even or fair for all parties then I will support.

 

[cooper43]

sorry luke i screwed up my last post and tacked it on the end of the previous one.

 

[JakesWorld]

Are you saying that NW's f/a's will not negotiate in good faith and that the only thing they are willing to except is DOH even if it is a disadvantage to most DL f/a's? I just believe before we say that DOH is the most fair we should be able to sit down and look at things first. I have no idea which way will favor one side or the other, however I still favor a process that allows for a time to negotiate what is fair for all not just some. It may turn out that DOH is the most fair but it also may turn out that it is not. The Pilots are not going strictly by date of hire. In my opinion DL has had a history of being fair. Even if our CEO is formally NWA doesnt mean that all of a sudden he is going to favor NW f/a's. I just want to be fair for all of us that is the only way this will work. If DOH turns out to be the most even or fair for all parties then I will support.

Cooper

The smartest thing to do is to ask the DL AFA activist these same questions as well as your DL leaders. AFA is going to say date of hire is the only way to go while you will get a variety of choices from Delta. Then take the information given, research some things online and ask F/A's from other airlines what their opinions are. Ask as many questions as you can until you feel comfortable with whatever your choice will be. My opinion is that date of hire may very well be what is in the best interest of the Delta F/A's. However, I think it is important for both DL F/A's and NW F/A's to see both seniority list and make a decision from there. Delta is the larger of the two airlines and if the DL F/A's are taking a bigger hit with losses than NW there needs to be a balance so any loss is born on both sides. From what I have seen and read so far a lot of junior F/A's at DL will be taking a big hit and I think it only fair that each side bear 50/50 of any loss.

 

[cooper43]

Cooper

The smartest thing to do is to ask the DL AFA activist these same questions as well as your DL leaders. AFA is going to say date of hire is the only way to go while you will get a variety of choices from Delta. Then take the information given, research some things online and ask F/A's from other airlines what their opinions are. Ask as many questions as you can until you feel comfortable with whatever your choice will be. My opinion is that date of hire may very well be what is in the best interest of the Delta F/A's. However, I think it is important for both DL F/A's and NW F/A's to see both seniority list and make a decision from there. Delta is the larger of the two airlines and if the DL F/A's are taking a bigger hit with losses than NW there needs to be a balance so any loss is born on both sides. From what I have seen and read so far a lot of junior F/A's at DL will be taking a big hit and I think it only fair that each side bear 50/50 of any loss.

Yes, I agree. We should all share evenly in this exchange. And as I understand it now if we vote AFA in before the merger, there is no negotiations,it is just DOH. I dont favor a stickly DOH policy when it may favor one side or the other. We need to know the facts such as each others seniority lists before we can make that decision. Also the DL list is changing as we speak because we have no idea how many senior f/a's will take it. So there are just too many unknowns at this moment to limit our options to a only DOH policy. Again, this is to be fare for both work groups.

 

[Cajun Flyer]

One of the best things about AFA, is that we have a strict Date-Of-Hire merger policy. That's why merger between AFA represented groups is always smoother than you see on the pilot side. When one group tries to "get ahead" in seniority, is when you see things fall apart (like we are seeing with NW/DL and what we saw with US/AW).
New to the board but coudn't help sign up to participate after reading some of the discussion. Regarding the above part of one of your posts. Straight date of hire seniority would not be a good thing for Delta Flight Attendants in the merger scenario. First, Delta F/A's have tons more opportunity to fly all over the world (38 cities in Europe, 6 in Africa, Middle East, Caribbean and South America), all that we would be gaining in great routes are Asian routes and then a great many of those NW routes are flown by Flight Attendants out of Tokyo which would rarely appeal to Delta F/A's. I honestly don't want NWA senior flight attendants transferring into JFK and Atlanta to fly those routes and make me more junior than I already am. That is a legitimate fear and concern by Delta F/A's.; you can't tell me that the senior mama's at NW won't commute to NY to fly Rome, Paris, Nice, Pisa, etc. Integration of F/A's needs to look at what opportunities both carriers Flight attendants currently have to fly and a merger of seniorities should be based on that and not straight date of hire. With AFA we'll have no choice in the matter and that is one-sided. Another issue is that Delta is offering the early out options and that will likely have the effect of making Delta F/A's more junior in comparison to those at NW which is another reason to have a fair integration and not straight date of hire. I totally wish we should just stay separate as the opportunities for NW F/A's are far greater in a merger than for Delta's.

Also does Northwest have straight reserve or do you have an Access Day or A-Day program like Delta does? I truly don't know the answer to that question, but I'm hoping for an A-Day program because I spent over 4 years on reserve until furloughed at Delta and I'm not going back. Upon my return to Delta, I was very surprised at how nice it was to have control over my schedule and have only 3 days that I had to sit reserve. What a huge change from the old system.

Someone also made a comment something to the effect that Delta F/A's on furlough shouldn't expect to come back. I was out on furlough for over 4 years and told Delta to only call me back if I could be Atlanta based. There were no delusions out there about it. I knew fully well that if I didn't get called back then it was of my own doing. If I had wanted to come back earlier, I could have changed my base preference a couple of times per year and could easily have come back much earlier had I wanted to. As it happens though I was called back after 4+ years and hadn't worried about it prior to that point. The changes made to the reserve program, preferential bidding, jetway trades, instant swaps with open time are all vast improvements over when I left. I don't want to see any of that go away. I love the jetway trades!!

While I don't trust Richard Anderson as far as I can throw him (Whitehurst would've been the best choice), I think there are both positives and negatives in electing a union. I don't think that the AFA is the right union for Delta as they've really not protected pay or benefits for any of their work groups and the carriers with the better pay and benefits all have a different union than AFA. Personally, I'd like to see us given a chance to vote for the union that Southwest has. We might see some real progress with them at the helm. There are people that are completely biased toward a union or against a union. I look at both sides and at this point believe that the AFA will hurt rather than help Delta F/A's in the merger process.

 

[BABABOOY]

Cajun, you make some really good points

At 19 years I will loose alot more than say Luke at 30 years. You have
to agree Luke, there is a difference. I would like to know what percentage
of NW F/A's fly domestic/intl. NOT counting the NRT/AMS base. I hold most
holidays off now. Will I after the merger? I doubt it.
It really looks like NW F/A's have more to gain than we do at Delta.
Also, I don't want to go back to full month reserve! What about the fence idea?
What happened to Republic F/A's when NW merged with them? How was that handled?

 

[bdazzled]

Cajun, you make some really good points

At 19 years I will loose alot more than say Luke at 30 years. You have
to agree Luke, there is a difference. I would like to know what percentage
of NW F/A's fly domestic/intl. NOT counting the NRT/AMS base. I hold most
holidays off now. Will I after the merger? I doubt it.
It really looks like NW F/A's have more to gain than we do at Delta.
Also, I don't want to go back to full month reserve! What about the fence idea?
What happened to Republic F/A's when NW merged with them? How was that handled?

However the integration is done there are going to be winners and losers. Whatever the results of the AFA election, the merged group will eventually be union. If a fence creates inefficiencies for the merged carrier than there will be no fence. Todays economic atmosphere, current government policies, and current interpretation of corporate laws do not favor any labor group.

 

[Danny Campbell]

bdazzled:

As long as NWA FA retain our contract there WILL BE A FENCE. In fact, Mike Campbell responded to our union and already put his 'legally required' signature to a letter recognizing our contract. You can read it here; http://www.nwaafa.org/docs/Delta_Scope_Letter.pdf/

If Delta FAs want there to be a fence, you should vote for AFA and help us keep our contract alive, because as long as our contract lives, we BOTH benefit from it. Particularly on the issue of a fence agreement.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Bababooy:

Northwest was represented by the Teamsters and Republic was AFA -- so things were TERRIBLE during that merger. AFA mergers are always the smoothest because we have very specific requirements that keep both groups separate until we have negotiated a COMBINED contract. Because we already have this language in our contract, as long as OUR contract remains alive (which you guys hold in your hands now - by choosing to join AFA), the company must keep us separate.
Now, if you vote NO to AFA and there is NOT another vote, or Delta defeats us in a second vote, then our contract disappears and they can do anything they want.

 

[yoyodyne]

Bababooy:

Northwest was represented by the Teamsters and Republic was AFA -- so things were TERRIBLE during that merger. AFA mergers are always the smoothest because we have very specific requirements that keep both groups separate until we have negotiated a COMBINED contract. Because we already have this language in our contract, as long as OUR contract remains alive (which you guys hold in your hands now - by choosing to join AFA), the company must keep us separate.
Now, if you vote NO to AFA and there is NOT another vote, or Delta defeats us in a second vote, then our contract disappears and they can do anything they want.

Buahahahah!!!

I´m back!!!!