2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[700UW]

No they didnt the TWU gave up profit sharing for the raise.

 

[WeAAsles]

This is an issue that Tim has brought up multiple times and that once the math was thrown at him he still continued to ignore it. Under the PS formula the company would have had to make almost 4 Billion in profits to equal the raise and that's not even including any OT, CS's or the additions to our 401k match. After that in each subsequesnt year for compounded raises added to the 4.3% the company would have to earn even more. We will be receiving a PS check in March since the merger didn't go into affect until Dec 9 of last year. Something Tim was telling us we wouldn't be getting.

In regards to the other issue brought up I'm very sure that both Unions are well aware of what their legal requirements are as I'm sure they both have well paid attorneys advising them.

 

[ograc]

Let's cut to the chase here. This Company has said, "eff u", we are not going to give anything more than what American has right now. The problem is if you break it down they are giving topped out people what would be close to their inflation raises that they haven't received since 2012 and less for employees not topped out. Through breaking down both surveys your NC has determined several key issues that need to be addressed in which the Company has refused to address. They want us to trust them that all of our concerns will be addressed in JCBA. IMO, this Company needs to address the concerns each of you brought up in the surveys by giving us a fair contract first and then we will be happy to go into JCBA with our Brothers and Sisters at AA. 
 
If everybody sticks together the end result will be a better offer then what the Company is offering now. Section 6 negotiations, which we are currently in, is better than JCBA talks because you can get self help while in section 6. The Company needs to realize that there is no goodwill on our part because there isn't any trust. A fair contract offer will go far in building any trust for JCBA.
 
P. Rez   

P. Rez,
Finally a true assesment of where we are as a collective group. The last company CEO that asked me to trust him was Ed Colodny. At the time he was the current CEO of US Air. Mailed all the members a key chain that enclosed a quarter. Instructed us to call him if there were any adverse effects to our livelihoods as a result of voting "no" to union representation and subsequently decertifying the Teamsters as our bargaining representative. Those of us on this thread that go back that long will recall. The vote went against representation and the Teamsters were decertified. The ink wasn't dry on the decertification papers before the company listed, through a systemwide announcement, a list of 7 or 8 concessions the formerly represented would be making. I lost my trust in the company back then. Any member who believes this company can be trusted or has the employees' best interests in mind is very naive. In defense of many of the members; they have not been employed long enough to realize the history and pattern of this company's leadership. The "New American"; with their fancy new paint job is the same whore in a new dress IMO. Battle lines are being drawn. It's up to you, the rest of the NC and the DL leadership to prepare the membership for battle. The membership awaits education and training before the order is given to LOCK and LOAD!    

 

[ograc]

Try talking to your co*workers whom you don't see at the union meetings every week and let me know what THEY think ...

This isn't about you or me ,this will be about what the membership wants and how the membership feels and I bet I've got a better beat on them than all of you .

The members you speak of are those from your station I presume. Knowing the station you work in and given the fact your station is relatively new to the actual threat of having to "lay it on the line" when it comes to fighting for principal and the betterment of the entire membership I don't doubt many of those you speak to are concerned and scared of the consequences of the impending battle. Yourself included. You, however, do not speak for the membership systemwide. Fall in and await orders. Ultimately, the leadership and the membership will decide the direction we take. Be brave. We all have our concerns... but now is the time to show a united front and stop second guessing.  

 

[necigrad]

Let's cut to the chase here. This Company has said, "eff u", we are not going to give anything more than what American has right now.

And this is a vast part of my issue, which has me boggled at how an impasse has not been declared.  This is NOT negotiating; this is giving an edict.  "We will give you X, but we're going to fight you on how you divy it up."

 

[Tim Nelson]

This is an issue that Tim has brought up multiple times and that once the math was thrown at him he still continued to ignore it. Under the PS formula the company would have had to make almost 4 Billion in profits to equal the raise and that's not even including any OT, CS's or the additions to our 401k match. After that in each subsequesnt year for compounded raises added to the 4.3% the company would have to earn even more. We will be receiving a PS check in March since the merger didn't go into affect until Dec 9 of last year. Something Tim was telling us we wouldn't be getting.
In regards to the other issue brought up I'm very sure that both Unions are well aware of what their legal requirements are as I'm sure they both have well paid attorneys advising them.

lets say that 4.3% = $2,500 per year increase. Thats $5,000 till 2015.
In 2015, you have pay parity which is going to be greater than the $23.00 wage. Thus, whether you got the 4.3% ot not, wouldnt you end up at the same pay parity wage in two years?

 

[Tim Nelson]

An interesting facebook chat regarding fleet service TWU/IAM: https://www.facebook.com/groups/482361158503857/

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim there are a few things that you're forgetting and leaving out. #1 was how I mentioned the OT, CS's and 401k additions that are factored into that 4.3%. We have people who like to put in quite a few extra hours. Not to mention our Crew chiefs who get an added $2 per hour on top of that 4.3%.

The other item is the fact that UAL did not have a contract yet and Delta was not added to the S&P 500 and given raises when the negotiations for averaging were done. So at that moment had you taken what UAL, Delta, USair and we made and averaged it out the averages would come out lower than what we are already making. Our raises would then still be an automatic 2.1% regardless. And the merger was not a guaranteed lock to occur.

So again if you factor in those items and consider the compounded increases over the years it was a better deal to make, of course now depending on what you guys end up with because of the financial strength of the merger. When you're negotiating you can't factor in what if's and crystal balls. So at that moment it was a very good decision to make to exchange possibilities for guaranteed money.... 

 

[freedom]

3 thoughts

1 .. we are the crew that helped make the merger possible ,were a winning work force .(aka we are valuable)

2 .the government would look quite unkindly on the dismissal of our work force during a strike

3 ..with the merger so new , a strike would send down the share price considerably and rattle the market with the merger so new .

These thoughts came to me when I woke up today .

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim I hope that you honestly don't bring up the trading of the PS for structural increases was a dumb idea shtick anymore and begin to explain the truth to people with the transparency of the explanation I've given you. I believe that this was the 4th time that I've given you the same assessment in different areas on the net including the multiple FB pages you run and are a part of?

 

[NYer]

lets say that 4.3% = $2,500 per year increase. Thats $5,000 till 2015.
In 2015, you have pay parity which is going to be greater than the $23.00 wage. Thus, whether you got the 4.3% ot not, wouldnt you end up at the same pay parity wage in two years?

 
Depends, the pay parity is an average which currently includes US Airways and if there is not Joint deal by then, or if the current negotiations aren't finished the current US Airways wages would lower the average and we could get stuck with no raises.
 
Why wait two years in order to get a raise now? A raise that also helps to get a larger match towards the 401K.
 
Isn't it true the current IAM Members in US Airways doesn't participate in their Profit Sharing payout as other groups within the airline?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim there are a few things that you're forgetting and leaving out. #1 was how I mentioned the OT, CS's and 401k additions that are factored into that 4.3%. We have people who like to put in quite a few extra hours. Not to mention our Crew chiefs who get an added $2 per hour on top of that 4.3%.

The other item is the fact that UAL did not have a contract yet and Delta was not added to the S&P 500 and given raises when the negotiations for averaging were done. So at that moment had you taken what UAL, Delta, USair and we made and averaged it out the averages would come out lower than what we are already making. Our raises would then still be an automatic 2.1% regardless. And the merger was not a guaranteed lock to occur.

So again if you factor in those items and consider the compounded increases over the years it was a better deal to make, of course now depending on what you guys end up with because of the financial strength of the merger. When you're negotiating you can't factor in what if's and crystal balls. So at that moment it was a very good decision to make to exchange possibilities for guaranteed money.... 

How is the 4.3% compounded if it is not equal to the pay parity adjustment in 2015?  For instance, let's say you didn't get the 4.3% pay raise and kept the profit sharing.  Wouldn't your wage rate be the exact same anyways at the pay parity date?  

 

[robbedagain]

3 thoughts

1 .. we are the crew that helped make the merger possible ,were a winning work force .(aka we are valuable)

2 .the government would look quite unkindly on the dismissal of our work force during a strike

3 ..with the merger so new , a strike would send down the share price considerably and rattle the market with the merger so new .

These thoughts came to me when I woke up today .
 
1st:  no we did not help to make it happen... the dirty ole donkeys of tempe went behind our backs and signed deals with aa unions to make it happen    we are not valuable in the eyes of those flippin screwed up donkeys
 
2.  the govt may.   but even in a 30 day cooling off period pax could start to book away from the airline thus the pressure is on the donkeys to secure deals with the iam to make the synergies realized  or the profits can tank
 
3    the threat of a strike could also send shares down

 

[WeAAsles]

NO. Tim does Profit sharing formulas ever factor in any extra hours worked? Let's say the 4.3% didn't exist as you're postualting. We would have received a 2.1% increase on our original base rate in 2013 and 2014 and in 2015 if the averages were below what we make we would receive only another 2.1%. Our raise is regardless if the average falls below what we make. The compounding is in the fact that we'll be making 8.5% more than we started out with between Nov 2014 and Nov 2015. So 8.5% rather than 4.2%. The math on all of this is really not that hard to figure out you know. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Depends, the pay parity is an average which currently includes US Airways and if there is not Joint deal by then, or if the current negotiations aren't finished the current US Airways wages would lower the average and we could get stuck with no raises.
 
Why wait two years in order to get a raise now? A raise that also helps to get a larger match towards the 401K.
 
Isn't it true the current IAM Members in US Airways doesn't participate in their Profit Sharing payout as other groups within the airline?

Presently, we already know that the bogey number for the United pay parity will be $25.35.   If Delta gets another 3% pay raise, their bogey number for the 2015 pay parity will be $25.19.   If US AIRWAYS gets nothing then the bogey number is $20.57.   We can say with certainty that those figures will add up to more than $23.48.  Never mind that management already offered a wage that is higher than $20.57 for sUS but not been agreed to.  So, again,  if the pay parity is greater than the 4.3% pay raises, then you would have been at the same spot on the wages regardless of the 4.3%.  
 
No, sUS doesn't have profit sharing. What was the profit sharing check of a 40 hour sAA ramper this year?  And what profits did sAA make last year?