2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[NYer]

How is the 4.3% compounded if it is not equal to the pay parity adjustment in 2015?  For instance, let's say you didn't get the 4.3% pay raise and kept the profit sharing.  Wouldn't your wage rate be the exact same anyways at the pay parity date?  

 
Currently, no. The US Airways wages being down the average and we would be above that threshold. With the Profit Sharing, you forget that we are now a 100K strong airline so the payouts would be diluted to a point that it would be almost impossible to gain the same value as achieved by the 4.3%. That percentage turns out to be $1,900 a year for a 40 hour week. Do you believe we would get a $1,900 profit sharing check every year?
 
If the US Airways negotiations bring pay parity to the AA rates, then we would be able to get an additional raise.
 
A point you fail to include is that when the pay adjustment was negotiated, there was not pay increase in UA or DL. So to say we could have kept the Profit Sharing AND get the pay rates is not really and accurate assessment that could have been made at the time that agreement was put in place.
 
Apparently, there is no Profit Sharing in place for IAM Members in US Airways (please, correct us if we're wrong on that point). So it was and is still a prudent decision to gain pay rates increases in place of potential payouts or potential rate increases.

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim from what I read the number on the UAL contract was $24.60? Now why are you having such difficulting or again ignoring OVERTIME, EXTRA HOURS WORKED BY CS, AND THE ADDITIONS TO OUR 401K for those subsequent years?

 

[Tim Nelson]

NO. Tim does Profit sharing formulas ever factor in any extra hours worked? Let's say the 4.3% didn't exist as you're postualting. We would have received a 2.1% increase on our original base rate in 2013 and 2014 and in 2015 if the averages were below what we make we would receive only another 2.1%. Our raise is regardless if the average falls below what we make. The compounding is in the fact that we'll be making 8.5% more than we started out with between Nov 2014 and Nov 2015. So 8.5% rather than 4.2%. The math on all of this is really not that hard to figure out you know. 

what you are not realizing is that if the pay parity is greater than all of your raises, which it will be, then you would have ended up at the same wage in 2015 regardless and everything moving forward including 401k will be based off of that pay parity.  Yes, the 4.3% was nice but the pay parity is nicer.  And since the pay parity is nicer, then after a certain amount of years, the profit sharing benefit would have equaled out and been greater than the two year frame in which you were getting the extra 4.3% plus its compounding affect.  How much was your profit sharing this year for a 40 hour topped out employee?  How much money did sAA make?  I'm asking because I don't know.
 
For a 40 hour employee your 4.3% wage would have been about $1,900 per year.  Let's add that to your 401k to come up with another $104 buck a year. Let's toss in 5 hours of OT a week and that's another $400 a year.  Let's say that the 4.3% is a total benefit of $2,500 a year then.  Then let's say that that benefit was less than the pay parity in 2015, which we can say with certainty that it is.  Then that means the 4.3% was a compensatable benefit maxed at $5,000.   So, if you kept profit sharing, then all the profit sharing would have to do is catch up to $5,000.  A few years of profits and you would be good to go.  Look, there really wasn't any foresight with your TWU.  The TWU caved in and agreed to member cleansing by wiping out scope in most stations just so the remaining employees can get a pay raise.   
 
Same thing can happen at sUS. I hope our NC increases and strengthens scope. I'd be scratching my head if they addressed pay increases at the expense of scope.  At any rate, as I said, it benefits the sUS members that you guys decided to increase your base pay for a couple years at the expense of your profit sharing since our members are basing their wage expectations off of your wage rate, including parity.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim from what I read the number on the UAL contract was $24.60? Now why are you having such difficulting or again ignoring OVERTIME, EXTRA HOURS WORKED BY CS, AND THE ADDITIONS TO OUR 401K for those subsequent years?

I've been through this with you at least a dozen times but you continually fail to read your own contract.  No, it's not $24.60!  When you read your contract, you just can't look at the wage.  Your contract says pay parity is based on wage plus longevity pay, line pay, etc.  So you have to add up all of those.  That adds an additional .75 for United parity, and .60 for Delta parity. 
 
I completely understand the compounding affect of the 4.3%. I'm saying there is no compounding affect of the 4.3% after 2015 since the pay parity is already greater based on current numbers and assuming sUS doesn't even get a pay raise.  That's why it is also very important to you that you support the current sUS talks.  If sUS is given the bankrupt sAA wage rate of $23, then the pay parity will approach $24.50 [over a dollar more than your contract currently allows].

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Currently, no. The US Airways wages being down the average and we would be above that threshold. With the Profit Sharing, you forget that we are now a 100K strong airline so the payouts would be diluted to a point that it would be almost impossible to gain the same value as achieved by the 4.3%. That percentage turns out to be $1,900 a year for a 40 hour week. Do you believe we would get a $1,900 profit sharing check every year?
 
If the US Airways negotiations bring pay parity to the AA rates, then we would be able to get an additional raise.
 
A point you fail to include is that when the pay adjustment was negotiated, there was not pay increase in UA or DL. So to say we could have kept the Profit Sharing AND get the pay rates is not really and accurate assessment that could have been made at the time that agreement was put in place.
 
Apparently, there is no Profit Sharing in place for IAM Members in US Airways (please, correct us if we're wrong on that point). So it was and is still a prudent decision to gain pay rates increases in place of potential payouts or potential rate increases.

From my perspective, it was good for sUS employees that you guys decided to toss out your profit sharing plan and just put a part of it in wages. No complaining on this end since sUS doesn't have any profit sharing.

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim Overtime, CS's and the additions to our 401k. I really think you are now absolutely and purposely ignoring the things we're telling you?

So knowing the rates of pay at the moment it was decided to exchange the PS for the 4.3% you would have foregone that if you had been the decider? Remind me if I ever had the chance not to vote for you if you were going to take GUARANTEED pay out of my pocket.

 

[NYer]

Presently, we already know that the bogey number for the United pay parity will be $25.35.   If Delta gets another 3% pay raise, their bogey number for the 2015 pay parity will be $25.19.   If US AIRWAYS gets nothing then the bogey number is $20.57.   We can say with certainty that those figures will add up to more than $23.48.  Never mind that management already offered a wage that is higher than $20.57 for sUS but not been agreed to.  So, again,  if the pay parity is greater than the 4.3% pay raises, then you would have been at the same spot on the wages regardless of the 4.3%.  
 
No, sUS doesn't have profit sharing. What was the profit sharing check of a 40 hour sAA ramper this year?  And what profits did sAA make last year? 

 
If your math is correct then we would have to have waited almost two years for those raises. At the time the deal was made there was no certainty of where the other carriers would fall.
 
On the other hand, if the US Airways negotiations are done and the pay rates are in par with the AA rates then we all stand to get another raise. Then would be getting 5 raises within two years.

 

[WeAAsles]

We have some guys on our ramp who with all the extra hours they work pulled in 80k last year. had they not had the strucural increase they would not have made that much and it would have not been also added to their 401k deposits and match.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim Overtime, CS's and the additions to our 401k. I really think you are now absolutely and purposely ignoring the things we're telling you?

So knowing the rates of pay at the moment it was decided to exchange the PS for the 4.3% you would have foregone that if you had been the decider? Remind me if I ever had the chance not to vote for you if you were going to take GUARANTEED pay out of my pocket.

I'm just saying that the 4.3% benefit STOPS at pay parity.  It's great that folks can enjoy it and work overtime to make some more bucks.  My point is simply that the 4.3% benefit and all of its compounding values STOP at pay parity since pay parity is going to be greater.  For some reason, you aren't acknowledging that.  Sure some folks make a lot more overtime than 5 hours a week, other folks are part time and not even topped out.  The numbers I used ended up as a $5,000 benefit, at most, even if you compound things for the 401k and add 5 hours of overtime each week for a topped out full timer.  
 
Moving forward, it was great for the sUS employees that your union decided to toss out profit sharing and add to the wages that our group apparently is negotiating on.  I've exhausted this conversation with you and I'm glad that some folks can bring in $80,000, my main focus isn't on a profit sharing that is gone, but on bringing back scope.

 

[mike33]

 
Depends, the pay parity is an average which currently includes US Airways and if there is not Joint deal by then, or if the current negotiations aren't finished the current US Airways wages would lower the average and we could get stuck with no raises.
 
Why wait two years in order to get a raise now? A raise that also helps to get a larger match towards the 401K.
 
Isn't it true the current IAM Members in US Airways doesn't participate in their Profit Sharing payout as other groups within the airline?

  Because a lot of us in cities across america would be out of a job. Non of the above would matter if you are unemployed or had to uproot your families !

 

[NYer]

what you are not realizing is that if the pay parity is greater than all of your raises, which it will be, then you would have ended up at the same wage in 2015 regardless and everything moving forward including 401k will be based off of that pay parity.  Yes, the 4.3% was nice but the pay parity is nicer.  And since the pay parity is nicer, then after a certain amount of years, the profit sharing benefit would have equaled out and been greater than the two year frame in which you were getting the extra 4.3% plus its compounding affect.  How much was your profit sharing this year for a 40 hour topped out employee?  How much money did sAA make?  I'm asking because I don't know.
 
For a 40 hour employee your 4.3% wage would have been about $1,900 per year.  Let's add that to your 401k to come up with another $104 buck a year. Let's toss in 5 hours of OT a week and that's another $400 a year.  Let's say that the 4.3% is a total benefit of $2,500 a year then.  Then let's say that that benefit was less than the pay parity in 2015, which we can say with certainty that it is.  Then that means the 4.3% was a compensatable benefit maxed at $5,000.   So, if you kept profit sharing, then all the profit sharing would have to do is catch up to $5,000.  A few years of profits and you would be good to go.  Look, there really wasn't any foresight with your TWU.  The TWU caved in and agreed to member cleansing by wiping out scope in most stations just so the remaining employees can get a pay raise.   
 
Same thing can happen at sUS. I hope our NC increases and strengthens scope. I'd be scratching my head if they addressed pay increases at the expense of scope.  At any rate, as I said, it benefits the sUS members that you guys decided to increase your base pay for a couple years at the expense of your profit sharing since our members are basing their wage expectations off of your wage rate, including parity.

 
Quite the opposite. The foresight was to try and get a tangible pay rate increase that becomes a given instead of a potential of profit sharing. At the time, in order to receive the equivalent in profit sharing the airline would have to make profits in the Billions. After a merger they would have to make a profit of over $3.5B in order to get the equivalent of $1900. Not likely.
 
Then the fact that the IAM doesn't have participate in the current US Airways profit sharing plan, it made and makes perfect sense to trade a potential profit sharing into a tangible pay increase. To not do so would leave too many variables which is very easy for someone like yourself to come and try to misrepresent what happened.
 
This agreement was made in 2012 as part of the CBA. There was no merger and the US Airways Members were at $20 an hour. The United Members didn't agree to their raises until October 2013. Delta can give it and can take it away. So, when this deal was made...those numbers that are easy for you to quote in 2014 didn't exist.
 
Fast forward towards the Merger talks with the TWU, US Airways management made it clear they weren't interested in the AA profit sharing plan and once the APA agreed to change their payout on the PS plan, the writing was on the wall. We secured an additional raise....Now you want to say we should have left it the way it was because your crystal ball told you UA was going to get a raise 11 months later.....not buying it.
 
Monday morning quarterbacks don't play in the NFL.

 

[NYer]

  Because a lot of us in cities across america would be out of a job. Non of the above would matter if you are unemployed or had to uproot your families !

 
No one is advocating to rush the negotiations. You guys have to try and get the best deal possible, but Tim was trying to make a point and we just tried to being a dose of reality to his views.

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim it's great that you are focusing on "SCOPE" and your campaign within the IAM but again unless you had a Crystal ball or a Swami hat there was absolutely no way to know what the pay rates for other airlines would be in Nov 2015. Delta as a Non union entity could also lower there pay rates tomorrow if they wanted. So what would have happened if at max everyone else was only making $22 per hour? Where would that have left us then? Underpaid and up to market forces such as say another spike in oil or economic world instability.

Maybe you're a man who enjoys the slots but I like keeping my money in my wallet personally.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Quite the opposite. The foresight was to try and get a tangible pay rate increase that becomes a given instead of a potential of profit sharing. At the time, in order to receive the equivalent in profit sharing the airline would have to make profits in the Billions. After a merger they would have to make a profit of over $3.5B in order to get the equivalent of $1900. Not likely.
 
Then the fact that the IAM doesn't have participate in the current US Airways profit sharing plan, it made and makes perfect sense to trade a potential profit sharing into a tangible pay increase. To not do so would leave too many variables which is very easy for someone like yourself to come and try to misrepresent what happened.
 
This agreement was made in 2012 as part of the CBA. There was no merger and the US Airways Members were at $20 an hour. The United Members didn't agree to their raises until October 2013. Delta can give it and can take it away. So, when this deal was made...those numbers that are easy for you to quote in 2014 didn't exist.
 
Fast forward towards the Merger talks with the TWU, US Airways management made it clear they weren't interested in the AA profit sharing plan and once the APA agreed to change their payout on the PS plan, the writing was on the wall. We secured an additional raise....Now you want to say we should have left it the way it was because your crystal ball told you UA was going to get a raise 11 months later.....not buying it.
 
Monday morning quarterbacks don't play in the NFL.

Great story! 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim it's great that you are focusing on "SCOPE" and your campaign within the IAM but again unless you had a Crystal ball or a Swami hat there was absolutely no way to know what the pay rates for other airlines would be in Nov 2015. Delta as a Non union entity could also lower there pay rates tomorrow if they wanted. So what would have happened if at max everyone else was only making $22 per hour? Where would that have left us then? Underpaid and up to market forces such as say another spike in oil or economic world instability.

Maybe you're a man who enjoys the slots but I like keeping my money in my wallet personally.

Again, you guys did what you did at the TWU.  And you made those decisions based on what you figured.  Sure, united could have decided it didn't want as much wage, or Delta could issue pay cuts.  I'm just saying at this point, that 4.3% wage increase will have a max benefit of $5,000 since it's life span will only be limited to 2 years [actually less than two years but no big deal].  Moving forward, the sUS negotiators are using that 4.3% as leverage for our members.  Definitely a good thing for sUS members.