2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought KA and JK were running for Grand Lodge positions and not District. 

Correct.  And the District is deeply involved with the pressures that the INTL have put on it for having its own housekeeping matters spill over to INTL politics.  Never mind that many of Delaney's locals supported KA. Hell to pay for that I'm sure but that's Delaney's problem.

 

[roabilly]

Tim,
 
I would like you to clarify something for me. In your post #1840, you say that the unitedforchange ticket is the "most experienced ticket ever put together", your words. Then in your post #1859, you claim that those two may not be the "most experienced". So which is it, the most experienced ticket put together or not? And just so we are clear, you had ZERO input in the putting together of the unitedforchange slate, is that what you are telling us on here? That UA/CO picked these two people, AV out of PHX and CC out of PHL, who have NO grievance writing, or hearing experience, to be on the slate you are running on? I don't think AV has ever been a shop steward. I have a hard time believing that you did not have any input what so ever.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... more than likely it's a duck!
 
Let’s just get straight to the point... Nelson placed himself on this ticket in hopes of riding a political wave, generated on the UA/CO side. It has nothing to do with US at all -- It has EVERYTHING to do with him riding on the coattails of the other candidates!
 
THAT is why there are less US candidates on his ticket... they would not carry the same political leverage for HIM to be elected!
 
He could care less about the combined experience of his ticket, as long as he is able to stack the deck in HIS favor...

 

[roabilly]

Roa,
 
You are talking about a management that took eight years to negotiate a JCBA for the AFA and the pilots still dont have one, which mostly driven by the seniority debacle.

Agreed... But, I think the stalling was due to the imminent mega-merger that was being planned for years. At some point, to make this thing work... they will need Labor's cooperation!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Read the agreement signed by the IAM and TWU, it states both unions will file the SCS jointly.
 
http://www.iamdl142.org/Bulletins/2013/TWU/Mechanic%20and%20Related%20Association%20Agreement.pdf

It states that the association will file a joint application.  This is exclusive of the TWU obligations under the MOU.   The association and the association agreement is not certified [or even recognized entity] and only exist on a piece of paper. It has no authority to speak to the company and can only do so after a single carrier application is filed in which case we can be certain that the TWU will yield to it.  But I want to clear up one thing.  Some AGC"S are going around telling folks that the association agreement supersedes the TWU MOU.  That is incredibly inaccurate. One thing we can say with certainty is that a single carrier application has to be filed within 6 months and the union is obligated to support the application and argue for it.  If that doesn't happen then I'm sure AH will have no problem filing in federal court an injunction asking for severe damages. 

 

[700UW]

Its a legal and binding agreement between the IAM and TWU.
 
The whole SCS issue is going to be a mess.
 
And what damages are proven by them not filing?
 
Nothing, anyone can file a lawsuit, it will wind its way through the courts for years.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
I would like you to clarify something for me. In your post #1840, you say that the unitedforchange ticket is the "most experienced ticket ever put together", your words. Then in your post #1859, you claim that those two may not be the "most experienced". So which is it, the most experienced ticket put together or not? And just so we are clear, you had ZERO input in the putting together of the unitedforchange slate, is that what you are telling us on here? That UA/CO picked these two people, AV out of PHX and CC out of PHL, who have NO grievance writing, or hearing experience, to be on the slate you are running on? I don't think AV has ever been a shop steward. I have a hard time believing that you did not have any input what so ever.

Both/And
 
On the whole, yes, our slate has more experience than any opposing slate ever, that I am aware of.  Most have been around for years and in service to the members.  Carl and Artie are two that don't have the most experience but their peeps support them, and for good reason. 

 

[roabilly]

Its a legal and binding agreement between the IAM and TWU.
 
The whole SCS issue is going to be a mess.
 
And what damages are proven by them not filing?
 
Nothing, anyone can file a lawsuit, it will wind its way through the courts for years.

I concur!

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
The NMB will stall? Why?
 
They will allow the TWU's application to be submitted and allow the allotted time for the IAM to either submit their own application of to have the Association submit its application. Either way, this process could assist the NMB in forcing the issue of moving negotiations forward instead of issuing a 30 day cooling off period which goes against their mandate of protecting the commerce of the United States....Wishful thinking on your part to hope the President gets involved is not something you should count on. The TWU decided to do so when the political landscape was much more in the Democrats favor and there was not intervention on their behalf.

You have an easy time quote mining me, don't you?  I never said the NMB will stall. I said nobody knows what the NMB will do, but I give a small lean to the Union due to Obama.  In fact, the NMB is stalling right now.  As far as Obama, yes, he has been instrumental with his labor boards and a stronger advocate for Labor than any former president in my lifetime. He changed the NMB rules manual to be so much fairer, and did so as a result of the Delta election.  His NLRB even stopped Boeing from moving forward with a new plant in South Carolina that incited Republicans who knew it was a result of Obama's strong resolve for Labor.   And, labor's political landscape with him is still growing and persuading public opinion, insomuch as the minimum wage is now another hot topic, The Democratic agenda has States and key cities pressuring Airlines and governments to pay higher wages.  I actually find it ludicrous that you can't recognize this.
 
Focusing on this industry, the situation couldn't be any better!!!   Previously, from 9/11, no democrat or Republican would approve a release due to the state of the industry and economy.  Even when Obama took over, businesses were in bankruptcy, unemployment approached 10%, and we were in the 'great recession'.  So, sorry to say, American Airline unions didn't have much leverage in a bankrupt industry.   So you are comparing apples to oranges my friend.
 
Step into the reality of the present situation.  Airlines are reporting not only record profits but their profits, according to DP, far exceed even their projections. Sorry, brother, but this industry is vibrant and having 6,000 Fleet service workers walk out on strike isn't going to cripple this industry. In fact, it's bizarre to suggest otherwise. 
 
When the NMB ruled a release for the MX in 1993,  the airline may have even had more mechanics than it does today.  If fact, we have less fleet service today than we did in 1993 as well.  The case before the NMB is one that has either 6,000 baggage handlers being released, or 3,000 mx.  In either case, releasing workers from the 5th biggest airline isn't going to crash this industry.  IMO, your argument has absolutely no merit.  That doesn't mean that the NMB won't stall or otherwise drag this out. In the end, who knows?  I just think that the IAM has  a compelling case.  This isn't  my case, it's the IAM's case and I think it has a lot of support.

 

[roabilly]

You have an easy time quote mining me, don't you?  I never said the NMB will stall. I said nobody knows what the NMB will do, but I give a small lean to the Union due to Obama.  In fact, the NMB is stalling right now.  As far as Obama, yes, he has been instrumental with his labor boards and a stronger advocate for Labor than any former president in my lifetime. He changed the NMB rules manual to be so much fairer, and did so as a result of the Delta election.  His NLRB even stopped Boeing from moving forward with a new plant in South Carolina that incited Republicans who knew it was a result of Obama's strong resolve for Labor.   And, labor's political landscape with him is still growing and persuading public opinion, insomuch as the minimum wage is now another hot topic, The Democratic agenda has States and key cities pressuring Airlines and governments to pay higher wages.  I actually find it ludicrous that you can't recognize this.
 
Focusing on this industry, the situation couldn't be any better!!!   Previously, from 9/11, no democrat or Republican would approve a release due to the state of the industry and economy.  Even when Obama took over, businesses were in bankruptcy, unemployment approached 10%, and we were in the 'great recession'.  So, sorry to say, American Airline unions didn't have much leverage in a bankrupt industry.   So you are comparing apples to oranges my friend.
 
Step into the reality of the present situation.  Airlines are reporting not only record profits but their profits, according to DP, far exceed even their projections. Sorry, brother, but this industry is vibrant and having 6,000 Fleet service workers walk out on strike isn't going to cripple this industry. In fact, it's bizarre to suggest otherwise. 
 
When the NMB ruled a release for the MX in 1993,  the airline may have even had more mechanics than it does today.  If fact, we have less fleet service today than we did in 1993 as well.  The case before the NMB is one that has either 6,000 baggage handlers being released, or 3,000 mx.  In either case, releasing workers from the 5th biggest airline isn't going to crash this industry.  IMO, your argument has absolutely no merit.  That doesn't mean that the NMB won't stall or otherwise drag this out. In the end, who knows?  I just think that the IAM has  a compelling case.  This isn't  my case, it's the IAM's case and I think it has a lot of support.

Congrats Mr. Nelson....
 
You just got a rare +1 from me...

 

[Tim Nelson]

Its a legal and binding agreement between the IAM and TWU.
 
The whole SCS issue is going to be a mess.
 
And what damages are proven by them not filing?
 
Nothing, anyone can file a lawsuit, it will wind its way through the courts for years.

Yes, it is an agreement between the unions but the NMB and the company don't recognize it and it isn't certified.  Will the association be certified? Absolutely in time.  Was it a great idea? Absolutely.  Will the TWU support the Association filing the application? Absolutely.  But that's outside the context of the MOU. 
 
None of that matters to AH who has a signed contract that is recognized by the NMB and courts....and that's what counts.  Because of the authority of the MOU, I couldn't see any reason why AH and management wouldn't file a injunction and ask for 'severe damages' due to lost synergies of the merger.  Hey, I would fully support the IAM/TWU playing hard ball and forcing things in court.  Airlines breach contracts all the time, so turnabout may be fair play.  I'm just saying that it's going to be a huge can of 'Championship fighting" getting opened up and a HUGE AND COMPLETE MESS as you say.  And what for?  Because AH wants to be unfair to a group of MX and fleet service who are only asking for modest things.  I mean, AH wants to risk putting this merger aside for months if not years and keep playing games and wants to refuse to pay even simply pay raises?  R U KIDDN ME?????   Leverage to the Unions!  Bring the 'mess' on, because the alternative is a complete and utter insult. We are not monkeys, we have families and deserve a fair shake TODAY.  Asking us to trust AH that he will take care of us in joint talks is laughable. That would mean no pay raises for another 5 years.
Hopefully the NMB gets this thing started because the airline is completely out of line.

 

[700UW]

First of all our strike for M&R was in October of 92 not 93.

And the Boeing Plant in SC was all ready up and running, that is why the IAM filed the charges with the NLRA, it was a Vought Plant that made parts for the 787 and the IAM used that leverage to obtain a new CBA.

And the NLRB ruled that Boeing was retaliating for the strike.

 

[Tim Nelson]

First of all our strike for M&R was in October of 92 not 93. And the Boeing Plant in SC was all ready up and running, that is why the IAM filed the charges with the NLRA, it was a Vought Plant that made parts for the 787 and the IAM used that leverage to obtain a new CBA. And the NLRB ruled that Boeing was retaliating for the strike.

But without Obama, none of that happens.

 

[Tim Nelson]

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... more than likely it's a duck!
 
Let’s just get straight to the point... Nelson placed himself on this ticket in hopes of riding a political wave, generated on the UA/CO side. It has nothing to do with US at all -- It has EVERYTHING to do with him riding on the coattails of the other candidates!
 
THAT is why there are less US candidates on his ticket... they would not carry the same political leverage for HIM to be elected!
 
He could care less about the combined experience of his ticket, as long as he is able to stack the deck in HIS favor...

Nah, that's not true at all.  What is true is that the entire team wanted to be fair to all groups.  4 AGC's from sUA PCE,  4 AGC's from sUA ramp, 3 AGC's from US AIRWAYS, 3 AGC's from sCO.   Although US AIRWAYS is the much smaller group, it still has the best ratio of AGC's out of all groups, i.e., 1 AGC for every 1,000 members.  United airlines, overall, is 1 AGC for every 1,600 members.  And with the association agreement, the amount of stations that have to be serviced will be much less so that some US AIRWAYS AGC"s may be assigned to sCO, stores, or sUA but that's Delany's call. 
 
OTOH, when you look at Delaney's ticket, he didn't even give sCO any 4 year AGC's. Not one.  Does that mean T5towbar should be mad?

 

[Tim Nelson]

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... more than likely it's a duck!
 
Let’s just get straight to the point... Nelson placed himself on this ticket in hopes of riding a political wave, generated on the UA/CO side. It has nothing to do with US at all -- It has EVERYTHING to do with him riding on the coattails of the other candidates!
 
THAT is why there are less US candidates on his ticket... they would not carry the same political leverage for HIM to be elected!
 
He could care less about the combined experience of his ticket, as long as he is able to stack the deck in HIS favor...

another thing Roabilly, there are some things that haven't been worked out yet that I hope will be worked out over the next few months. Things that will benefit US AIRWAYS/American Airline members that I'm advocating for. This has nothing to do with politics or any slate. I'll say more if something non political progresses as I hope it does.

 

[mike33]

It states that the association will file a joint application.  This is exclusive of the TWU obligations under the MOU.   The association and the association agreement is not certified [or even recognized entity] and only exist on a piece of paper. It has no authority to speak to the company and can only do so after a single carrier application is filed in which case we can be certain that the TWU will yield to it.  But I want to clear up one thing.  Some AGC"S are going around telling folks that the association agreement supersedes the TWU MOU.  That is incredibly inaccurate. One thing we can say with certainty is that a single carrier application has to be filed within 6 months and the union is obligated to support the application and argue for it.  If that doesn't happen then I'm sure AH will have no problem filing in federal court an injunction asking for severe damages. 

  If the company were to file a lawsuit,  it may take years to hear the whole thing. Maybe thats what the unions are thinking as the JCBA would have been settled by then.  If not,  and the TWU is sued and looses quickly,  who bears the burden of the resulting $$ fines? The IAM might argue that the Association had not been voted on so that relieves them of liability. 
  It's really not a so cut and dry situation as some think ( IMO ). I think that the argument may be made to the MNB that if not released soon, that there is great harm in six months from Jan 2014.