2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

Aside from that it has to be a leaders responsibility to inform the membership of the importance of protecting SCOPE and being adament on negotiating to strengthen it. Not hand out pamphlets to the members and asking them to state their level of importance on contract issues numbering them from 1 to 10. In that regard individual greed and not seeing the bigger picture will win out every time.

+10000000
 
I couldn't agree more

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Well at US all THREE CBAs of the IAM represented employees, the AFA and the CBA all have the same language which lets them honor a sanctioned picket line at the company,the language has been tested in arbitration and won.
 
 
Interesting as AA and US are both wholly owned carriers by AAG, I just caught this language.
 
 
And you reply shows different.

That's good to know about the restriction on hiring at the wholly owns. Is Piedmont airlines CWA represented employees under contract yet?

 

[700UW]

Yes I believe they are.
 
And the unions now have leverage imo since AA and US are both wholly owned by AAG and the language in the CBAs says the CBAs are binding upon new ownership.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Yes I believe they are.
 
And the unions now have leverage imo since AA and US are both wholly owned by AAG and the language in the CBAs says the CBAs are binding upon new ownership.

I like the part where "There should not be any prohibition.....employees of the company".  That should cover sAA as well now but we need confirmation on this.
 
When I read the Piedmont contract [found it on Piedmontagent.org] that contract says that the union can't sympathize in strikes on company property. But I would think that the part you quoted, page 5 of fleet contract as well, would lend the Piedmont CWA a free hand to sympathize but this needs to be addressed. 
 
IMO, the CWA would have no option, if it wanted to survive, other than to support any IAM strike.  Politically, it would be a disaster for the CWA's organizing drive in 2014 if any strike failed. OTOH, it would be a Godsend to its organizing drive if folks 'saw' the power of unions.  Seemingly a perfect storm against a management team that has gotten away with things for way way too long.
 
That said, if a strike were to happen, then the company would be free to impose a brand new contract that could make all of the above void....right?  We need legal clarity over these items.

 

[700UW]

Looks like AH is going to have it shoved where the sun doesnt shine.
 
After the first bankruptcy the company (AH) filed the grievance against the IAM and outsourced the overhaul on the first several A319s, I personally spoke to the former US Labor Relations Attorney and she told AH not to outsource it nor file a grievance as it was a loser, in his hubris, he did it anyhow.
 
The IAM won in Federal Court and in arbitration, AH was pissed according to the US Attorney, so AH isnt as smart as he thinks he is when he ignores is own counsel's advice.

 

[roabilly]

Let me see if I can try to explain the process to you just a little bit. In a Chapter 11 BK "Restructuring" there is a set value that the company deems it needs to have to survive. In the case of AA that value was 20% from ALL unsecured creditors. So the issue for us is that we don't sell say coffee cups to the company and can cut our prices by 20%. We have a contract that has specific values set to many different items. Our 20% amounted to the tune of 320Mil that was needed to be cut from our contract. A group of leaders under legal advisement basically has to sit in a room and figure out the pieces to that puzzle to put it all together. Freezing the pension has value, our retiree medical, changing station staffing formulas, pay rates, etc.

From that point on once completed it has to be taken back to the membership as the ultimate decider. Those members "and they were" are given a full accounting of their choices on voting yes or no. No in a BK can lead to an "abrogation" An abrogation is the judge throws out the contract and the company can set any terms they wish. That was explained to us fully by the legal team hired by the TWU, Sharon Levine. You should look up her qualifications. In our case the members accepted the concessions and that set the stage for the rest of the story that we are up to today. We can only look to Hostess and what ultimately happened to them as an extreme example of the possibilities of saying no. Unique to them as it was.

Your anology of "wiping the floor" doesn't explain the full picture in it's entirety. That story would have to go all the way back to deregulation forward with all the situations that happened in between to get us to where we are today. Attempting to place blame or compare an apple to an orange (any of us) is far too simplistic since we've all gone through the same rabbit hole.

If you have any other questions without trying to make comparisons to any of our collective situations I'll be more than happy to answer them for you. Remember that each situation and outcome again is unique. 

I’ve attempted to explain the process regarding Corporate Bankruptcy Laws over and over in this forum for years. Time, after time, ALL of this has been discussed and explained. After all of this... there are still people that blame the Union for what happened!
 
It’s really amazing to me, and I see why the Companies would use these BK Laws as “tools” to crush labor...
 
Think about it... it’s a win-win for the Company. They get to use a Legal System that they lobbied politicians to create, as means to completely neuter the Represented Employee Groups (Even the Pilots) thus, rendering their CBA’s useless.
 
Then, using completely legal processes, they corner the Unions and make demands like the 20% you indicated, OR through the abrogation process, they WILL impose an agreement of THEIR choosing.
 
The most amazing part is that after the dust settles, factions of the Membership BLAMES the Union for the losses, while giving the Company a free pass -- which in turn, weakens the solidarity of the organized groups further. The end result of course, is where we are today...
 
Armchair Negotiators like Nelson dredge up all of this BK carnage to discredit Union Leaders for their own political gain!
 
So... yes the “Gun to the Head” analogy is correct... there is not one damn thing the Unions can do when these processes are implemented! 

 

[Kev3188]

 

Let me see if I can try to explain the process to you just a little bit.

...Lemme stop you right there. I've been through the 1113c wringer, and know all about how it works, the methodologies used by both sides, etc.

Your anology of "wiping the floor" doesn't explain the full picture in it's entirety.

You're right- it was early when I posted.

I was comparing it to what we (NW) managed to secure comparitively in our trip through the BK court system...

If you have any other questions without trying to make comparisons to any of our collective situations I'll be more than happy to answer them for you. Remember that each situation and outcome again is unique.

I think that making comparisons *is* important. As I've noted on here before, I believe none of us operate in a vaccuum; what happens at one carrier will *absolutely* affect everyone elsewhere.
 
 

As an aside, the United members are at a really great risk, perhaps a greater risk than Delta employees.  Those that endorsed the United contract are naïve and misled and can't possibly understand Labor.

+1, though I'd say we (DL) are just as much at risk. As NC's continue to fail at other carriers, there becomes less and less of a reason to meet/exceed what they have on our property. We have no scope now, but they keep many stations as way to buy labor peace. As each of these CBA's lowers the threshold, so too does DL's incentive to meet them. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

I’ve attempted to explain the process regarding Corporate Bankruptcy Laws over and over in this forum for years. Time, after time, ALL of this has been discussed and explained. After all of this... there are still people that blame the Union for what happened!
 
It’s really amazing to me, and I see why the Companies would use these BK Laws as “tools” to crush labor...
 
Think about it... it’s a win-win for the Company. They get to use a Legal System that they lobbied politicians to create, as means to completely neuter the Represented Employee Groups (Even the Pilots) thus, rendering their CBA’s useless.
 
Then, using completely legal processes, they corner the Unions and make demands like the 20% you indicated, OR through the abrogation process, they WILL impose an agreement of THEIR choosing.
 
The most amazing part is that after the dust settles, factions of the Membership BLAMES the Union for the losses, while giving the Company a free pass -- which in turn, weakens the solidarity of the organized groups further. The end result of course, is where we are today...
 
Armchair Negotiators like Nelson dredge up all of this BK carnage to discredit Union Leaders for their own political gain!
 
So... yes the “Gun to the Head” analogy is correct... there is not one damn thing the Unions can do when these processes are implemented! 

Absolutely the union leadership is to be blamed along with the company.  Canale lied to all of us with the 1113 letters and no union leader ever, ever ever, should agree to seniority cleansing EVER.   The CWA didn't agree to such things in the same bankrupt talks and they came out with every station, even though the IAM lost most stations. It's not an inherent thing with the IAM, it's the leadership. I don't believe the CWA agreed to class two pay either for their mainline stations.  
 
Moving forward, yes, absolutely we can blame the current IAM141 eboard for endorsing the United agreement?  Your constant rambling about "The Republicans control the earth and are larger than life" fall on deaf ears with me.  The Republicans didn't get your boys to endorse that anti union contract.  We have a lot of cleaning up to do around these parts and it should start with the union leadership.  We can't change AH but we can change the direction that your boys have set us on with their actions that have made things toxic.  At US AIRWAYS, your boys are saying all the right things just like they did at United before officer elections were over July 1, 2012.  Then they flipped like pancakes.  Can I say with certain that they will do it again? No.  But I remain skeptical. Very very skeptical of anyone who could flip and then endorse such a bizarre contract at united that is in fact worse than any of our bankrupt contracts.

 

[cltrat]

there was no Bk analogy in the UA agreement nor any RLA laws were the cause.
 
It was just deceit by the leadership to sell the membership a pig in a poke, i.e. a pos agreement. Something that some just refuse to comprehend like it could never happen here.

 

[Kev3188]

 

I’ve attempted to explain the process regarding Corporate Bankruptcy Laws over and over in this forum for years. Time, after time, ALL of this has been discussed and explained. After all of this... there are still people that blame the Union for what happened!
 
It’s really amazing to me, and I see why the Companies would use these BK Laws as “tools” to crush labor...
 
Think about it... it’s a win-win for the Company. They get to use a Legal System that they lobbied politicians to create, as means to completely neuter the Represented Employee Groups (Even the Pilots) thus, rendering their CBA’s useless.
 
Then, using completely legal processes, they corner the Unions and make demands like the 20% you indicated, OR through the abrogation process, they WILL impose an agreement of THEIR choosing.
 
The most amazing part is that after the dust settles, factions of the Membership BLAMES the Union for the losses, while giving the Company a free pass -- which in turn, weakens the solidarity of the organized groups further. The end result of course, is where we are today...
 
Armchair Negotiators like Nelson dredge up all of this BK carnage to discredit Union Leaders for their own political gain!
 
So... yes the “Gun to the Head” analogy is correct... there is not one damn thing the Unions can do when these processes are implemented!

ROA--

With all due respect, it's a sh*t analogy. It makes us all sound like helpless victims.

I do agree with you (assuming I read this correctly) that the membership is ultimately responsible for any outcome, but that also means that for too long we elected less than optimal leadership, were complacent enough to let them stay, and were beat down enough to just say "F it" and pass whatever was thrown our way. Worse still, many people think being "union" begins and ends with either dues check off or at the time clock, and never bother to act against the political machinations working to crush them. That goes for America's working class as a whole, not just aviation.

Look, you've been around a long time; when was the last time you saw *real* solidarity on a widespread basis. Not hot air, the real deal.

 

[Tim Nelson]

there was no Bk analogy in the UA agreement nor any RLA laws were the cause.
 
It was just deceit by the leadership to sell the membership a pig in a poke, i.e. a pos agreement. Something that some just refuse to comprehend like it could never happen here.

Because of hate and personal vendetta's.  Anyone away from the situation can plainly see that the IAM141 leadership blew up our craft with that United agreement. It was wrong by so many ways. Some continually support the leadership and claim "Pay no attention to United" because US AIRWAYS is the golden child of the district, but in doing so, they further the Republican agenda and become a Republican tool.
 

 

ROA--

With all due respect, it's a sh*t analogy.

I do agree with you (assuming I read this correctly) that the membership is ultimately responsible for any outcome, but that also means that for too long we elected less than optimal leadership, were complacent enough to let them stay, and were beat down enough to just say "F it" and pass whatever was thrown our way. Worse still, many people think being "union" begins and ends with either dues check off or at the time clock, and never bother to act against the political machinations working to crush them. That goes for America's working class as a whole, not just aviation.

Look, you've been around a long time; when was the last time you saw *real* solidarity on a widespread basis. Not hot air, the real deal.

I believe the contention on who's fault it is, is with those who continually try to separate the leadership outside of the membership.  The leadership is within the membership and is the "Leadership of the Membership".  As with a company or with practically any human entity, everything rises and falls with the leadership within.  When Roabily or anyone blames the membership, they must necessarily include the leadership.  It seems as if Roabilly detaches this recognition.  And regarding the rank and file, they were lied to by the IAM141 eboard. 100% lied and defrauded with the explanations.  I can't be sure of June elections but if we look at the nominations, it was 100% obvious that the United airline members are judging the actions of the leadership quite harshly, as well they should.  It was no surprise to me that ORD, IAD, SFO [both locals], EWR, IAH, DEN all voted for change.  And did so with over 80% of those attending.  Why?  Because they were pimped and they know it.  There is a reason why all of the Change candidates secured their home nominations from the qualified nominations.   

 

[roabilly]

Absolutely the union leadership is to be blamed along with the company.  Canale lied to all of us with the 1113 letters and no union leader ever, ever ever, should agree to seniority cleansing EVER.   The CWA didn't agree to such things in the same bankrupt talks and they came out with every station, even though the IAM lost most stations. It's not an inherent thing with the IAM, it's the leadership. I don't believe the CWA agreed to class two pay either for their mainline stations.  
 
Moving forward, yes, absolutely we can blame the current IAM141 eboard for endorsing the United agreement?  Your constant rambling about "The Republicans control the earth and are larger than life" fall on deaf ears with me.  The Republicans didn't get your boys to endorse that anti union contract.  We have a lot of cleaning up to do around these parts and it should start with the union leadership.  We can't change AH but we can change the direction that your boys have set us on with their actions that have made things toxic.  At US AIRWAYS, your boys are saying all the right things just like they did at United before officer elections were over July 1, 2012.  Then they flipped like pancakes.  Can I say with certain that they will do it again? No.  But I remain skeptical. Very very skeptical of anyone who could flip and then endorse such a bizarre contract at united that is in fact worse than any of our bankrupt contracts.

Nelson,
 
Where in the hell in my post you just quoted... did see you the word Republican?

 

[roabilly]

 

ROA--

With all due respect, it's a sh*t analogy. It makes us all sound like helpless victims.

I do agree with you (assuming I read this correctly) that the membership is ultimately responsible for any outcome, but that also means that for too long we elected less than optimal leadership, were complacent enough to let them stay, and were beat down enough to just say "F it" and pass whatever was thrown our way. Worse still, many people think being "union" begins and ends with either dues check off or at the time clock, and never bother to act against the political machinations working to crush them. That goes for America's working class as a whole, not just aviation.

Look, you've been around a long time; when was the last time you saw *real* solidarity on a widespread basis. Not hot air, the real deal.

Kev..
 
The point I’m making is simple... the dynamics of section 6 are completely different than a BK agreement, or even a Transition Agreement. Attempting to juxtapose one or the other over where we are today is counterproductive.
 
80% of the negative comments in this forum are complaining about things that happened in BK. Hell, go to the Pilots forum, they HATE each other because of what the COMPANY did! There is no way they will EVER regain their solidarity! And they STILL remain without a contract after almost a decade!
 
That’s the reality...

 

[roabilly]

Because of hate and personal vendetta's.  Anyone away from the situation can plainly see that the IAM141 leadership blew up our craft with that United agreement. It was wrong by so many ways. Some continually support the leadership and claim "Pay no attention to United" because US AIRWAYS is the golden child of the district, but in doing so, they further the Republican agenda and become a Republican tool.
 
I believe the contention on who's fault it is, is with those who continually try to separate the leadership outside of the membership.  The leadership is within the membership and is the "Leadership of the Membership".  As with a company or with practically any human entity, everything rises and falls with the leadership within.  When Roabily or anyone blames the membership, they must necessarily include the leadership.  It seems as if Roabilly detaches this recognition.  And regarding the rank and file, they were lied to by the IAM141 eboard. 100% lied and defrauded with the explanations.  I can't be sure of June elections but if we look at the nominations, it was 100% obvious that the United airline members are judging the actions of the leadership quite harshly, as well they should.  It was no surprise to me that ORD, IAD, SFO [both locals], EWR, IAH, DEN all voted for change.  And did so with over 80% of those attending.  Why?  Because they were pimped and they know it.  There is a reason why all of the Change candidates secured their home nominations from the qualified nominations.   

Nelson...
 
I blamed the Company... what part of that did you not understand...the  "Com" or the" pany"?

 

[WeAAsles]

I’ve attempted to explain the process regarding Corporate Bankruptcy Laws over and over in this forum for years. Time, after time, ALL of this has been discussed and explained. After all of this... there are still people that blame the Union for what happened!
 
It’s really amazing to me, and I see why the Companies would use these BK Laws as “tools” to crush labor...
 
Think about it... it’s a win-win for the Company. They get to use a Legal System that they lobbied politicians to create, as means to completely neuter the Represented Employee Groups (Even the Pilots) thus, rendering their CBA’s useless.
 
Then, using completely legal processes, they corner the Unions and make demands like the 20% you indicated, OR through the abrogation process, they WILL impose an agreement of THEIR choosing.
 
The most amazing part is that after the dust settles, factions of the Membership BLAMES the Union for the losses, while giving the Company a free pass -- which in turn, weakens the solidarity of the organized groups further. The end result of course, is where we are today...
 
Armchair Negotiators like Nelson dredge up all of this BK carnage to discredit Union Leaders for their own political gain!
 
So... yes the “Gun to the Head” analogy is correct... there is not one damn thing the Unions can do when these processes are implemented! 

It's easy for others to armchair quaterback from the sidelines but once they get in the game they learn the hard realities and that all their ambitions and promises come up against some pretty hard and harsh realities and walls. I'm not saying these people don't have ideas and things they really would like to see happen and hope to accomplish but as George Carlin once famously said "The Game is Rigged"

The very fortunate thing for me is that I was able to build a repport with the people who were elected in those positions when the BK hit. I got an insiders view of things from the chairs they were sitting in. Personally after awhile I had no envy for them. Those chairs are really hard wood and the sacrifices they made being away from home and families I'm not so sure I'd want to make. Damn good people doing the absolute best they can with the tools they have.

Blaming the Union is easy. The company doesn't care about your personal problems or your lot in life so the screaming falls on deaf ears and everyone knows it. But the Union is payed by the members so the thought is they're obligated to take the hits. The target is just easier to hit.

The reason I love my Union and all unions is the simplicity of what was in the last BLS report I read a few weeks ago. The average Union member makes $200.00 per week more comparred to his non union counterpart. And when it comes to what we do the average worker makes a little over $24,000 per year with no benefits. I make DOUBLE not even counting my benefits. All for a lousy $45 per month. That's one hell of a return on my investment even with all the givebacks.

You want to get through to people? You just have to keep plugging away. Be relentless (and sometimes even annoying) and don't stop. After awhile you'll actually begin to hear some of the things you've been saying being repeated back at you or hear it in a conversation in a break room. It's happened to me and that's what keeps me going....