2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[roabilly]

I’ve attempted to explain the process regarding Corporate Bankruptcy Laws over and over in this forum for years. Time, after time, ALL of this has been discussed and explained. After all of this... there are still people that blame the Union for what happened!
 
It’s really amazing to me, and I see why the Companies would use these BK Laws as “tools” to crush labor...
 
Think about it... it’s a win-win for the Company. They get to use a Legal System that they lobbied politicians to create, as a means to completely neuter the Represented Employee Groups (Even the Pilots) thus, rendering their CBA’s useless.
 
Then, using completely legal processes, they corner the Unions and make demands like the 20% you indicated, OR through the abrogation process, they WILL impose an agreement of THEIR choosing.
 
The most amazing part is that after the dust settles, factions of the Membership BLAMES the Union for the losses, while giving the Company a free pass -- which in turn, weakens the solidarity of the organized groups further. The end result of course, is where we are today...
 
Armchair Negotiators like Nelson dredge up all of this BK carnage to discredit Union Leaders for their own political gain!
 
So... yes the “Gun to the Head” analogy is correct... there is not one damn thing the Unions can do when these processes are implemented! 

Nelson,
 
I assume you can read, and comprehend English... show me the word "Republican" and/or the phrase where I blame the Membership for what the COMPANY did...
 
As I've said... you have to hammer the mismatched puzzle pieces together to make "your" version of the overall picture work!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson,
 
I assume you can read, and comprehend English... show me the word "Republican" and/or the phrase where I blame the Membership for what the COMPANY did...
 
As I've said... you have to hammer the mismatched puzzle pieces together to make "your" version of the overall picture work!

You never said the word "Republican", it's what I heard though.  Shameful actually.  The reality flag that you carry is the same one of the Republicans but you do so because of bias' that make you blind to the reality of labor. For instance, you say "The Company did this to the United members".   REALLY????   Kindly review your RLA and you will see that no company can unilaterally change a contract.  Yet, your blindness leaves you with a great void of knowledge about the sh&tty job that your boys did at United.  Kindly review our conversations back in 2012 where I told you what was going to happen.  Most have seen the error of their thoughts but you continue to be deluded, perhaps because of your fear of Republicans or maybe because you accept the realities that Republicans want you to believe.  But Gosh forbid you say CB was wrong for endorsing the United contract.  And it is that bias that causes you to be blind so that it is virtually impossible for you to understand and you ended up serving the one thing that you say you are against.

 

[roabilly]

It's easy for others to armchair quaterback from the sidelines but once they get in the game they learn the hard realities and that all their ambitions and promises come up against some pretty hard and harsh realities and walls. I'm not saying these people don't have ideas and things they really would like to see happen and hope to accomplish but as George Carlin once famously said "The Game is Rigged"

The very fortunate thing for me is that I was able to build a repport with the people who were elected in those positions when the BK hit. I got an insiders view of things from the chairs they were sitting in. Personally after awhile I had no envy for them. Those chairs are really hard wood and the sacrifices they made being away from home and families I'm not so sure I'd want to make. Damn good people doing the absolute best they can with the tools they have.

Blaming the Union is easy. The company doesn't care about your personal problems or your lot in life so the screaming falls on deaf ears and everyone knows it. But the Union is payed by the members so the thought is they're obligated to take the hits. The target is just easier to hit.

The reason I love my Union and all unions is the simplicity of what was in the last BLS report I read a few weeks ago. The average Union member makes $200.00 per week more comparred to his non union counterpart. And when it comes to what we do the average worker makes a little over $24,000 per year with no benefits. I make DOUBLE not even counting my benefits. All for a lousy $45 per month. That's one hell of a return on my investment even with all the givebacks.

You want to get through to people? You just have to keep plugging away. Be relentless (and sometimes even annoying) and don't stop. After awhile you'll actually begin to hear some of the things you've been saying being repeated back at you or hear it in a conversation in a break room. It's happened to me and that's what keeps me going....

Very well said sir...
 
At this point you and Cargo (ograc) are about the only posters in this forum that actually “Get it”. I’m blamed for siding with the Union Leadership instead of advocating the “Throw the bums out” crusade.
 
I’ve been around a long... long...time... and I have NEVER seen any significant changes made by following this ideology. My dad was a lifetime IAM member, and I remember as boy, he was bitching about the same things. This was the 60’s... and they even changed Leadership several times, but ultimately nothing has changed since then!
 
It’s the same old song and dance...“Vote us in, and we will correct everything the other corrupt guys have screwed you on”... I’m talking over FIVE DECADES of this F'n garbage!
 
Meanwhile... the Company laughs all the way to the bank as the Membership gets brainwashed into believing their Union is corrupt and/or inept!

 

[roabilly]

You never said the word "Republican", it's what I heard though.  Shameful actually.  The reality flag that you carry is the same one of the Republicans but you do so because of bias' that make you blind to the reality of labor. For instance, you say "The Company did this to the United members".   REALLY????   Kindly review your RLA and you will see that no company can unilaterally change a contract.  Yet, your blindness leaves you with a great void of knowledge about the sh&tty job that your boys did at United.  Kindly review our conversations back in 2012 where I told you what was going to happen.  Most have seen the error of their thoughts but you continue to be deluded, perhaps because of your fear of Republicans or maybe because you accept the realities that Republicans want you to believe.  But Gosh forbid you say CB was wrong for endorsing the United contract.  And it is that bias that causes you to be blind so that it is virtually impossible for you to understand and you ended up serving the one thing that you say you are against.

Nelson,
 
You HEAR things in your head quite a bit don't you? Unfortunately, by the time it goes through your "agenda filter" and ends up as the written word, it bears no resemblance to my position.
 
Remember the puzzle pieces? I would love to see what you do with Legos... do you just crush them together... or do you use super glue?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson,
 
You HEAR things in your head quite a bit don't you? Unfortunately, by the time it goes through your "agenda filter" and ends up as the written word, it bears no resemblance to my position.
 
Remember the puzzle pieces? I would love to see what you do with Legos... do you just crush them together... or do you use super glue?

Did the union leadership harm the membership at United Airlines by bringing forth that TA.  Saying it was monumental,  protecting only 7 stations, agreeing to unlimited part time and ready reserve or, lying about its contents?  A simple yes or no will do?  Otherwise, you are worse than Bob Corker to labor.  At least everyone knows where Corker is coming from, but you just blame the membership with no accountability from its leadership.
Hint:  the correct answer is Yes, the union leadership, including CB who endorsed it, did in fact blow up our craft.  So, again, answer the question Roabily.  Yes or No?

 

[WeAAsles]

Very well said sir...
 
At this point you and Cargo (ograc) are about the only posters in this forum that actually “Get it”. I’m blamed for siding with the Union Leadership instead of advocating the “Throw the bums out” crusade.
 
I’ve been around a long... long...time... and I have NEVER seen any significant changes made by following this ideology. My dad was a lifetime IAM member, and I remember as boy, he was bitching about the same things. This was the 60’s... and they even changed Leadership several times, but ultimately nothing has changed since then!
 
It’s the same old song and dance...“Vote us in, and we will correct everything the other corrupt guys have screwed you on”... I’m talking over FIVE DECADES of this F'n garbage!
 
Meanwhile... the Company laughs all the way to the bank as the Membership gets brainwashed into believing their Union is corrupt and/or inept!

Some of us have different motivations and we don't let our personal greed or ambitions be our guiding force. It's not always easy but it is real.

And to comment on something else I guess certain people can't get through their heads that ultimately it's the membership who votes in a contract. Whether an INDIVIDUAL thinks it's bad or not doesn't matter when the collective get's to read it and make the decision for themselves. To continue on knowing that either implies that they don't like the system (unionism) or they think the collective is too stupid in comparison to themselves to make the right choice?

Yes that's the person I want to lead me huh. Nah!!!

 

[700UW]

The bottom line is the UA CBA let UA do what they want, would I have voted for it, no, but the NC at UA and the membership failed each other, but the one side CO or UA wanted the money, thats the bottom line, it happened with the HP/US merger also, bottom line is people are basically looking out for themselves and dont care about their coworkers, its a sad state of affairs.
 
And in regard to Chapter 11, only people who win are the Lawyers, the Judge's responsibility is to the creditors, not the employees, no worker ever wins or gains when a company enters chapter 11, the laws are in favor of the company and the creditors, never the employees.
 
If you really want to learn how bad Bankruptcy was before Section 1113 C, which still sucks, go read what Lorenzo was able to to do to CO before 1113 was enacted, Congress passed it because of him
 
There were no negotiations, CBAs were treated like every other contract and voided as was union certification.

 

[roabilly]

I've said this over, and over concerning the UA agreement, if I were the one actually voting on it... I wouldn't give a rats ass WHO endorsed it, attempted to sell it, or even mentioned it. My vote is my vote, based on MY comprehension of what I'm voting on! As cargo said, 70% of the Membership endorsed it...
 
And one other thing-- what was the overall percentage of UA Membership tun-out in that vote? How many even cared enough to go to the polls? 700? Nelson?... anybody?

 

[cltrat]

I've said this over, and over concerning the UA agreement, if I were the one actually voting on it... I wouldn't give a rats ass WHO endorsed it, attempted to sell it, or even mentioned it. My vote is my vote, based on MY comprehension of what I'm voting on! As cargo said, 70% of the Membership endorsed it...
 
And one other thing-- what was the overall percentage of UA Membership tun-out in that vote? How many even cared enough to go to the polls? 700? Nelson?... anybody?

I have to call a little bullshite on that, all they got to read was basically a "cliff notes" verison of the deal so making a truly educated decision is difficult for even the member who tries to know.
forget the one who doesn't so the information from the leadership should be honest and straight up. Members asking questions or disagreeing should NEVER be called dumb or stupid and I seen examples of Klemm in particular doing it in a public forum under his own name the pompous ass! I know you won't admit it but people like him fked the UA members.

 

[roabilly]

I have to call a little bullshite on that, all they got to read was basically a "cliff notes" verison of the deal so making a truly educated decision is difficult for even the member who tries to know.
forget the one who doesn't so the information from the leadership should be honest and straight up. Members asking questions or disagreeing should NEVER be called dumb or stupid and I seen examples of Klemm in particular doing it in a public forum under his own name the pompous ass! I know you won't admit it but people like him fked the UA members.

I don't know Klemm from Adam... never been in the UA forum discussing their business...
 
I do agree that at times the Leadership in not fully prepared and/or willing to submit every detail to Membership prior to a ratification vote. I almost came to blows with Bonar, and Moore over this concerning seniority in our first agreement. Ironically, most of the Members that would benefit from the status quo were completely OK with the lack of information on this, because they knew it would benefit THEM!
 
This is where we get these ratification votes based on personal reasons as opposed to collective reasons...
 
Do I think the UA deal was good for US? Probably not... but I'm not UA... and I only care about US, and thus far, we haven't voted on anything. Even Nelson admitted that things would be NO DIFFERENT today regarding Section 6, had he been elected as the 141 President!

 

[WeAAsles]

I have to call a little bullshite on that, all they got to read was basically a "cliff notes" verison of the deal so making a truly educated decision is difficult for even the member who tries to know.forget the one who doesn't so the information from the leadership should be honest and straight up. Members asking questions or disagreeing should NEVER be called dumb or stupid and I seen examples of Klemm in particular doing it in a public forum under his own name the pompous ass! I know you won't admit it but people like him fked the UA members.

That's funny because I got to read it before the vote and I'm not even a UAL IAM member. It was posted online. We were even discussing it on our group FB pages. We also knew the position those members were in when they received the TA. Just saying.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I've said this over, and over concerning the UA agreement, if I were the one actually voting on it... I wouldn't give a rats ass WHO endorsed it, attempted to sell it, or even mentioned it. My vote is my vote, based on MY comprehension of what I'm voting on! As cargo said, 70% of the Membership endorsed it...
 
And one other thing-- what was the overall percentage of UA Membership tun-out in that vote? How many even cared enough to go to the polls? 700? Nelson?... anybody?

You are a fraud.  Of course you would care, much like how you cared for who endorsed your contract in 2008 and showed up at the "Throw Down Party".  Kindly review  your post of about 6 years ago and how you really do care when someone signs your contract.  
 
The United members care as well, and they are showing they care by endorsing change at all the big United locals.  Yet you are saying that you really don't give a crap who endorsed that contract that you are voting on?   And you are saying that you really don't care that the leadership lied to the membership when they interpreted the contract and manufactured the consent? 
 
You care Roabilly, oh yeah you do.  But your trouble is that both of us know who endorsed it.  Case Closed!  Now go run back to MF.  Lol

 

[rockit2]

I'm tired of reading about all this UA bull crap, they got screwed by their agc's and by themselves. They wanted money and that's the bottom line and now they will pay for what they voted on.
Let's get back to US, let's get ready to hand AH what he deserve's. Bottom line, are the fleet at AA going to support us and 700, are your maint. buddies ready to support us if we walk first?

 

[Tim Nelson]

I have to call a little bullshite on that, all they got to read was basically a "cliff notes" verison of the deal so making a truly educated decision is difficult for even the member who tries to know.
forget the one who doesn't so the information from the leadership should be honest and straight up. Members asking questions or disagreeing should NEVER be called dumb or stupid and I seen examples of Klemm in particular doing it in a public forum under his own name the pompous ass! I know you won't admit it but people like him fked the UA members.

Roabilly doesn't have the stones to admit it.  The United members did see the entire TA.  The contract explanation in the breakrooms was diced with fraud, lies, and deceit of interpretations.  Some of which was "Time stamped" on FB so we could use their words against them.  The Full Time commitment letter was one scandal. It was explained by Delaney and  Roabilly's boys as something it NEVER was.  The unlimited part time and back to back was explained in lies.  The so called 98% guarantee was a scandal of the mind. 
 
Roabilly knows, but as I said, he doesn't have the stones to answer a fairly simple question because it incrimmadates [sp] his own boys and sets everyone straight about what I TOLD ROABILLY would happen.  Roabilly knows but he is not free to say so.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I'm tired of reading about all this UA bull crap, they got screwed by their agc's and by themselves. They wanted money and that's the bottom line and now they will pay for what they voted on.
Let's get back to US, let's get ready to hand AH what he deserve's. Bottom line, are the fleet at AA going to support us and 700, are your maint. buddies ready to support us if we walk first?

They also got screwed by our chief negotiator and all of our US AIRWAYS board members who endorsed it.  The path is clear, talk big until elections are over.  That has been the actions of the present IAM141.  After June 2012, the sUA plan was put in gear.  We have to talk about that and recognize that the US AIRWAYS case has the exact same leaders who betrayed United after the June elections of 2012.  By using their own actions, we must be very skeptical of what they will do after June 2012 should they be re-elected.   If they were guilty of the first crime, then it would be in error to allow them to commit a second one. 
 
In the meantime, they continue to waive off grievances by getting management to sign off on time limits.  After June, if change happens, then cutting deals with management over time limits is going to be winding down. Staying the present course and holding up the merger as best that we can will continue unless we get a reasonable contract with dignity and respect. I know Delaney and after elections you can figure nothing good will happen if there is nobody elected that stands up to him.  Whatever the case, there needs to be diversity on the eboard anyways.  Having Kumbuya[ist] and allowing Delaney to preach to the choir hasn't gotten any membership ahead.