2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[NYer]

And that was AA and the TWU.
Not US and the IAM and US told the NMB there were not negotiating anymore.

 
If that were true, the IAM would win the process because the airline would be in breach of negotiating in "good faith," which basically means they just show up and entertain the process. The guide and the dictator of what happens from here on out is the NMB, not the airline and not the IAM. Simple, unfortunate, but simple.

 

[700UW]

Show the board where the NMB has stated they wont release the parties?
 
You havent.
 
And last time when US and the IAM were called to the NMB Al Hemenway clearly stated they were done, hence why the meetings this week and the ask for the final offer to be exchanged.
 
You do understand the concept of a final offer, dont you?
 
 
 
The negotiations were all ready put on hiatus before, and the board has met with US and the IAM several times since then.
 
And to WeAA
 
I have provided links to major vs minor disputes.
 
 
 
The non-filing of the SCS is a minor dispute under the RLA, it doesnt change working conditions under the CBA.
 
If the US outsourcing case was ruled a minor dispute and that did change the the IAM/US CBA at the time which did violate the status quo, please show the board how the non-filing would be a major dispute under the RLA?
 
And even the MOU states any disputes under the MOU goes to arbitration, if it was a major dispute it would go to Federal Court.
 
We have lived it at US all ready.

 

[NYer]

And that was AA and the TWU.
Not US and the IAM and US told the NMB there were not negotiating anymore.

 
OK, how about hearing it from the APFA:
 
March 24, 2011 - "In a special hotline message sent out Thursday afternoon to American Airlines flight attendants, APFA president Laura Glading said it is unlikely that federal mediators will release the union from contract talks with the Fort Worth-based carrier."
 
"She says that the National Mediation Board had indicated at meetings in mid-February that it would base its decision to release the APFA into a cooling-off period on the "financial condition of our airline and the nation's economy."
 
"She went on to say, "While American Airlines’ lagging performance is not our fault, it is clearly becoming our problem."

"As will the National Mediation Board, we must also consider the economic reality facing our country.  Who could have imagined three years ago that this country would be in the financial state it is, with the unemployment rate hovering around 9 percent? The political reality is to a large extent defined by the state of the economy.  Consequently, it is clear to us that the White House will avoid any kind of disruption.  And we cannot lose sight of the fact that the National Mediation Board answers to the White House."

"Based on the totality of these circumstances we must, reluctantly but realistically, conclude that the NMB will not release the parties into a thirty-day cooling off period any time soon."

Read more here: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/association_of_professional_flight_attendants/page/21/#storylink=cpy

 

[roabilly]

And even the MOU states any disputes under the MOU goes to arbitration, if it was a major dispute it would go to Federal Court.
 

I'm not choosing sides here, but here is the language in the MOU regarding arbitration...
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:10088]
Not sure if it will help...
 
You have to CLICK once to enlarge...

 

[700UW]

The APFA and the TWU at AA have nothing to do with what is transpiring with US, the IAM and the NMB.
 
How come you cant understand that?
 
Shall I post how the APFA, AMFA, and the IAM has been on strike before in the airlines?
 
You can post as much as you want about AA, its unions and the NMB, it has no regard to what is going on at US.

Apples and Oranges.
 
US is financially sound, AA wasnt.

 

[WeAAsles]

And to WeAA
 
I have provided links to major vs minor disputes.
 
 
 
The non-filing of the SCS is a minor dispute under the RLA, it doesnt change working conditions under the CBA.
 
If the US outsourcing case was ruled a minor dispute and that did change the the IAM/US CBA at the time which did violate the status quo, please show the board how the non-filing would be a major dispute under the RLA?
 
And even the MOU states any disputes under the MOU goes to arbitration, if it was a major dispute it would go to Federal Court.
 
We have lived it at US all ready.

Has there ever been a situation where the Labor organization had already "agreed" to file for SCS prior to the merger becoming a reality. An actual contract with the carrier itself that this would be done.

And I believe it would be considered a minor dispute if there were any issues with interpretation, not with a wholesale "breach" of the agreement.

 

[NYer]

Show the board where the NMB has stated they wont release the parties? That's cute. Is that your idea of proving a point? Because if it is then you would need to show the Board where the NMB stated they would release the parties. The main function of the NMB is to protect national commerce and the economy. They will not let that largest airline in the world affect that. They will also not contribute towards possibly crippling the Plan of Reorganization of an airline that just came out of bankruptcy.
 
I understand the frustrations of working under the bankruptcy contracts of the past, but like we learned in our battle. Those scars will not be healed in one contract. The more time wasted on trying to gain an impossible end, is time wasted in trying to get the best possible deal then expanding on that in the Joint Negotiations.
 
You havent.
 
And last time when US and the IAM were called to the NMB Al Hemenway clearly stated they were done, hence why the meetings this week and the ask for the final offer to be exchanged.
 
You do understand the concept of a final offer, dont you? Yes, in this case it will be an attempt to try and get some kind of movement and/or to show the alternative of what the IAM will be voting for in the event there is no progress.
 
 
 
The negotiations were all ready put on hiatus before, and the board has met with US and the IAM several times since then.
 
And to WeAA
 
I have provided links to major vs minor disputes.
 
 
 
The non-filing of the SCS is a minor dispute under the RLA, it doesnt change working conditions under the CBA.
 
If the US outsourcing case was ruled a minor dispute and that did change the the IAM/US CBA at the time which did violate the status quo, please show the board how the non-filing would be a major dispute under the RLA?
 
And even the MOU states any disputes under the MOU goes to arbitration, if it was a major dispute it would go to Federal Court.
 
We have lived it at US all ready.

 

[700UW]

You arent understand the difference of a major vs minor dispute.
 

“Major”and “Minor”Disputes
Major Disputes–matters affecting rates of pay, rules and working conditions; and, making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties.

• Almost total reliance upon collective bargaining for dispute settlement.
• Self-help permitted after negotiation and mediation procedures are exhausted.

Minor Disputes–grievances growing out of the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements.

• Self-help not allowed.

 

 

 
The RLA categorizes all labor disputes as either "major" disputes, which concern the making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties, or "minor" disputes, which involve the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements. Unions can strike over major disputes only after they have exhausted the RLA's "almost interminable" negotiation and mediation procedures. They cannot, on the other hand, strike over minor disputes, either during the arbitration procedures or after an award is issued.
 
The federal courts have the power to enjoin a strike over a major dispute if the union has not exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures. The Norris-LaGuardia Act dictates the procedures that the court must follow. Once the NMB releases the parties from mediation, however, they retain the power to engage in strikes or lockouts, even if they subsequently resume negotiations or the NMB offers mediation again.
The federal courts likewise have the power to enjoin a union from striking over arbitrable disputes. The court may, on the other hand, also require the employer to restore the status quo as a condition of any injunctive relief against a strike.
 

 

[700UW]

A Final Offer is only voted upon during a 30 day cooling off period or during Section 1113 C bankruptcy proceedings.
 
The NMB under the RLA does not have the power to force a union to vote on a CBA.
 
The IAM will only vote a final offer after a release is granted, that is how they operate.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
 

I am absolutely understanding the definitions you are providing 700 but you're leaving out one big caveat, "Collective Bargaining Agreement"

The MOU is NOT a collective bargaining agreement as the members never voted on it. It is an agreement between two parties and in my personal opinion can be brought to court if there is a breach of that agreement?

 

[700UW]

The MOU just like any LOA is part of the CBA, its not a stand alone document as it changes the CBA.
 
The MOU has a clear cut process for ANY disputes that arise under it.
 
It goes to arbitration, not court.

 

[WeAAsles]

The MOU just like any LOA is part of the CBA, its not a stand alone document as it changes the CBA.
 
The MOU has a clear cut process for ANY disputes that arise under it.
 
It goes to arbitration, not court.

Well if that's the case and you are correct I'm going to have to hope that my Union takes the advisement of their Lawyers for the interpretation as I very much doubt that either one of us wants to see even the remotest chance of any harm coming to a fellow AFL/CIO affiliate.

 

[NYer]

The APFA and the TWU at AA have nothing to do with what is transpiring with US, the IAM and the NMB.
 
How come you cant understand that? The NMB doesn't make their decision based on the "needs" or "wants" of the particular union group. They are in place to safeguard the economy and the national commerce. Our concerns and our issues have absolutely no bearing on their decisions. Currently, Southwest and the TWU are also in mediation and they are not going to be released either.
 
Shall I post how the APFA, AMFA, and the IAM has been on strike before in the airlines? Please, let me. From 1947 to 1992 there were 159. From 1993 to 2014 there were 13...of those, there were 6 since 9/11 with only one being a major airline and that was NWA who's mechanics were replaced. (the others were Polar Air in 2005, World Airways in 2006, Petroleum Helicopters in 2006, AmeriJet in 2009 and Spirit in 2010)
 
You can post as much as you want about AA, its unions and the NMB, it has no regard to what is going on at US.
Apples and Oranges. US is AA and AA is US, their separate fortunes are now tied together.
 
US is financially sound, AA wasnt. The airlines finances are not the main priority of the NMB, it is the national economy.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I am absolutely understanding the definitions you are providing 700 but you're leaving out one big caveat, "Collective Bargaining Agreement"

The MOU is NOT a collective bargaining agreement as the members never voted on it. It is an agreement between two parties and in my personal opinion can be brought to court if there is a breach of that agreement?

wrong.  700 is right on this.

 

[NYer]

A Final Offer is only voted upon during a 30 day cooling off period or during Section 1113 C bankruptcy proceedings.
 
The NMB under the RLA does not have the power to force a union to vote on a CBA.
 
The IAM will only vote a final offer after a release is granted, that is how they operate.

 
July 1, 2010 -  "The Transport Workers Union instructed its locals Thursday to conduct a strike vote among American Airlines Inc. fleet service clerks and ground workers, with hopes that the National Mediation Board will declare an impasse and allow a walkout."
 
"The union threw out a tentative agreement with American on Monday and renewed its call for the NMB to release the union from further mediation. That would trigger a 30-day cooling-off period, after which the union could strike."
 
"The union is facing pressure from the Board to give members an opportunity to vote on deals. There is also the legal question of whether the union can repudiate a tentative deal it had already signed."