2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[roabilly]

If you knew how to read, you would have a better understanding, unless of course you are just being Roabilly again.  I knew it wouldn't take you more than a couple hours.

Ohhh... really... So I'll assume I did not comprehend the following post from you to 700 a little over a week ago?
 
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Posted by Tim Nelson on 13 March 2014 – 09:41 US Airways "you need to stop the lies. You must really think people are morons to believe that mou is not a contract. Company agreed to pay an additional 4.3% pay and in return it got the twu to lock in a single carrier application. 
To support your lie, you clain that a mou doesnt contractually obligate. Lmao. Well i guess AH will cancel the 4.3% pay raise as well. Not!

AH will ask for severe damages of millions of dollars of lost synergies from the twu. 

Sorry but the twu will go bankrupt plus it isnt going to stick its neck out and lose a legal case and pay millions.
put the kool aid down 700.

To the audience, the twu isnt going to do this. But thats the BS that some are trying to sell to avoid the timetable that is set in motion.

The single carrier will be filed. Make no mistake. And if our nc keeps bull s everyone, the risk is that you may not get a thing before joint talks, just like when they s united. Same damn thing.

Its time to come clean and be straight with members and put down the bong."
 
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P.S. That was real professional calling 700 a moron, liar, and smoking a bong... real class act aren't you?

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
It is a shame that someone that wants to be a leader so misinforms those he wants to lead.
 
You will not find that I have ever "insisted" that IAM members "just take what is on the table." The entire conversation is about not relying on the NMB and a 30 day cooling off period in order to use that get a deal. If the IAM doesn't get released, then there has been a real waste of time and energy in a fruitless tactic.
 
You have a partner union member that is giving you insights from the last major case mediated by the NMB and hopefully that insight would be used to at least temper expectations. In contrast, the information is only dismissed. That dismissal doesn't affect me in any way, but it misleads those that it will affect.
 
The shares we received are meaningless and actually the way the distribution works, we would actually fare better in the long term in the stock price were to go down. That would mean we get more shares than what we may get currently. So that attempt to discredit the person rather than the information shared, is baseless. (good try though)

Yaawwwnnnnn.  You need to go back to school if you really think that the stock price is the holdup.  What's wrong with you?   Yes, me and you DEFINATELY disagree with that one.
 
However, other than some of your dopey statements, I do agree that the IAM's rhetoric can be misleading.  It's been saying there is an impasse for a year now [sound familiar?] but there isn't an impasse, just long drawn out boring negotiations where the NMB ices everyone for two month stretches.  Do we need patience? Yes.   But am I concerned?  Well, hell yeah I am due to the IAM's recent merger history.  That's why I have been on the IAM's ass about a Plan B.  What you don't understand is that elections are here in two months and a candidate can get a helluva lot more votes pounding a chest talking about how a release is coming soon. 
 
I've also been on the IAM's ass about telling the truth about single carrier application timelines.  At the end of the day, there is a risk that the IAM members may get $0.   At United it screamed stand alone but then after an election, it melted and said that it could no longer wait on the NMB and worked out a deal with management to go into joint talks and enter 'accelerated negotiations'.  Politically, the members bought it and then realized the terrible consequences afterwards. 
 
Politically, I can't imagine the TWU standing on the sidelines for an extended time without taking some heat from its own members. The association imo is a good thing but AH may hope to drive a wedge between the two unions.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
The negotiations go as the NMB calls them to go....including who's in the room and who's not...what is shared and what is not.
 
Obviously, you're in a political cycle and part of the June elections, but trying to make issues out of things that the leadership (which would include you if you win) may not be allowed to share or control, is pretty partisan.

So you are now saying that the NMB will refuse to allow the IAM to bring back the pathetic company offer and drag it in the streets?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
After the June elections there are two paths that this can take, in my opinion.
 
1--The Association dissolves due to inaction and the TWU files for the Single Carrier Status. If that happens then we will be in a representational battle for years. That may put the IAM contract on the back burner.
 
 

This would be probably the most stupidest thing that either Union would want to put themselves through IMO. With membership so low today among the private sector, fighting for what's left like a pack of hungry vultures only insures that eventually they'll be no meat left on the carcass to prevent starvation.

I appreciate Richard Trumpka seeing the reality behide this that together we're stronger against the real enemies out to slit our throats. If the association falls I'll know why. Politics, greed and emotions. And we'll all suffer the most for it.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Crikey. I agree with almost everything you said here Tim. Looking at the UAL votes. The first one was put out and the membership showed what their feelings were for it by overwhelmingly rejecting it. A few months later a new TA was brought out which even though Tim disagrees had vast improvements on the first one. The membership then overwhelmingly accepted it.

Sometimes you have to put your faith in the membership to decide the next course of action and direction. Especially if you feel you may be coming to a stalemate.

I'm very uncomfortable with a paternal style of unionism. I know that isn't old school but I simply am against the "Daddy knows best" style.  Such paternalisms have fallen in our culture where people want choices.
 
All I'm saying is enough of the bull ####.  If the company offer blows, and i'm sure it does, then use that negative as a positive against management and allow the members to see it and vote upon it with a strike vote, and recommend a rejection of the .20 cent pay raise and a Yes to strike.  That would speed things up.  If the IAM says that negotiations are useless, as it said in the press today, then what the hell are we waiting on?  The union has to power to bring the offer back and I doubt management would really like that.  Management apparently is just jerking the IAM off and calling their BS, realizing that the IAM doesn't trust its members.
 
Someone in union leadership is going to have to make a decision.  Waiting another two months on ice is a joke. At some point, it is plausible to think that the TWU will see a mess and will opt out of the association agreement. 
 
At any rate, since last May, our leaders have been saying we are at an impasse.  The problem is that every two months they meet again, and we hear the same things.  I'm not saying I'm right but I would say that most don't really expect the NMB to issue a release this quick [and yes that would be quick] so, in the meantime, can we please have action? If there is an offer, as bad as it is, can we please see it Daddy?

 

[NYer]

Yaawwwnnnnn.  You need to go back to school if you really think that the stock price is the holdup.  What's wrong with you?   Yes, me and you DEFINATELY disagree with that one.
 
However, other than some of your dopey statements, I do agree that the IAM's rhetoric can be misleading.  It's been saying there is an impasse for a year now [sound familiar?] but there isn't an impasse, just long drawn out boring negotiations where the NMB ices everyone for two month stretches.  Do we need patience? Yes.   But am I concerned?  Well, hell yeah I am due to the IAM's recent merger history.  That's why I have been on the IAM's ass about a Plan B.  What you don't understand is that elections are here in two months and a candidate can get a helluva lot more votes pounding a chest talking about how a release is coming soon. 
 
I've also been on the IAM's ass about telling the truth about single carrier application timelines.  At the end of the day, there is a risk that the IAM members may get $0.   At United it screamed stand alone but then after an election, it melted and said that it could no longer wait on the NMB and worked out a deal with management to go into joint talks and enter 'accelerated negotiations'.  Politically, the members bought it and then realized the terrible consequences afterwards. 
 
Politically, I can't imagine the TWU standing on the sidelines for an extended time without taking some heat from its own members. The association imo is a good thing but AH may hope to drive a wedge between the two unions.

 
A wedge isn't needed to be placed artificially. The TWU supports the IAM's efforts to get a deal. However, there are triggers in the TWU contract that have a certain time frame that takes us to September 2015. As we get closer to that date the pressure will be on the TWU and their continued insistence on waiting for a deal with US and the IAM.
 
That's when the TWU members will realize that we stand to leave some money on the table in order to continue to support the current path in negotiations and by that I mean a stand alone before a joint deal. The TWU Members will also start to recall how the IAM did not support the merger and how it was the only union not doing so.
 
The reasons why are completely legitimate but that will be lost when they stand to lose some money.
 
There are many dynamics in this battle and I hope you are willing to give an accurate account of the issues rather than a politically motivated spew of finger pointing.

 

[Tim Nelson]

AH is calling IAM Bull ****.  He presents a ridiculous offer knowing full well that the IAM does NOT trust its membership and has refused to allow any information flow to the members. 

 

[NYer]

So you are now saying that the NMB will refuse to allow the IAM to bring back the pathetic company offer and drag it in the streets?

 
Wow. I'll have to use Google Translate to figure out how you made that interpretation.
 
or
 
Maybe you confused yourself with the constant flip-flopping.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
A wedge isn't needed to be placed artificially. The TWU supports the IAM's efforts to get a deal. However, there are triggers in the TWU contract that have a certain time frame that takes us to September 2015. As we get closer to that date the pressure will be on the TWU and their continued insistence on waiting for a deal with US and the IAM.
 
That's when the TWU members will realize that we stand to leave some money on the table in order to continue to support the current path in negotiations and by that I mean a stand alone before a joint deal. The TWU Members will also start to recall how the IAM did not support the merger and how it was the only union not doing so.
 
The reasons why are completely legitimate but that will be lost when they stand to lose some money.
 
There are many dynamics in this battle and I hope you are willing to give an accurate account of the issues rather than a politically motivated spew of finger pointing.

I can't argue against any of the above.  I'm just very uncomfortable when these unions make absolute statements as they have.  "There won't be a single carrier until we get a stand alone."  Really???? That's entirely out of the IAM's hands.
And I don't like the IAM telling the media that our members are prepared to strike when OUR MEMBERS haven't even been shown what the hell is on the table, MUCH less taken a strike vote. 
 
"Earth to Major IAM......you do have members and how about showing them the proposals and voting on them along with a strike vote as well!"

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm very uncomfortable with a paternal style of unionism. I know that isn't old school but I simply am against the "Daddy knows best" style.  Such paternalisms have fallen in our culture where people want choices.
 
All I'm saying is enough of the bull ####.  If the company offer blows, and i'm sure it does, then use that negative as a positive against management and allow the members to see it and vote upon it with a strike vote, and recommend a rejection of the .20 cent pay raise and a Yes to strike.  That would speed things up.  If the IAM says that negotiations are useless, as it said in the press today, then what the hell are we waiting on?  The union has to power to bring the offer back and I doubt management would really like that.  Management apparently is just jerking the IAM off and calling their BS, realizing that the IAM doesn't trust its members.
 
Someone in union leadership is going to have to make a decision.  Waiting another two months on ice is a joke. At some point, it is plausible to think that the TWU will see a mess and will opt out of the association agreement. 
 
At any rate, since last May, our leaders have been saying we are at an impasse.  The problem is that every two months they meet again, and we hear the same things.  I'm not saying I'm right but I would say that most don't really expect the NMB to issue a release this quick [and yes that would be quick] so, in the meantime, can we please have action? If there is an offer, as bad as it is, can we please see it Daddy?

Tim this is now the second time in one morning that I agree with almost everything you've said. Please stop making sense as it's beginning to make me nervous.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Wow. I'll have to use Google Translate to figure out how you made that interpretation.
 
or
 
Maybe you confused yourself with the constant flip-flopping.

Look, the NMB doesn't tell the IAM that they can't bring back a proposal to vote upon. K?  Also, the NMB isn't going to make a decision based on the latest stock price either as you claim.

 

[NYer]

I can't argue against any of the above.  I'm just very uncomfortable when these unions make absolute statements as they have.  "There won't be a single carrier until we get a stand alone."  Really???? That's entirely out of the IAM's hands.
And I don't like the IAM telling the media that our members are prepared to strike when OUR MEMBERS haven't even been shown what the hell is on the table, MUCH less taken a strike vote. 
 
"Earth to Major IAM......you do have members and how about showing them the proposals and voting on them along with a strike vote as well!"

 
Tim, if you want to be leader then you need to understand that the quotes in a newspaper is not directed at the Members but the public. The flying public, the stockholders and even Wall Street. That is the mechanism in which leverage and pressure can be applied to the airline to try and get them to move on any proposals. It is an attempt to move the financial forces in a manner that it could effect the bottom line.
 
If a strike is out of the question, then the appearance of readiness in a vacuum of uncertainty can cause a movement in the IAM's direction. If that fails, the leverage once again goes towards the airline.
 
In 2009, the TWU believed a Democratic President was the tonic needed to sway the leverage towards Labor's side, needless to say that was not what transpired. It's getting to the point where this "show" of force is not even causing a tick on Wall Street. Everyone seems to see what path these types of negotiations take and the last one's to realize the reality are the members themselves.
 
We all have to try and get the best deal we can, but too often we try to get the perfect deal....It's not out there. It hasn't been out there since the 1970's.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
Tim, if you want to be leader then you need to understand that the quotes in a newspaper is not directed at the Members but the public. The flying public, the stockholders and even Wall Street. That is the mechanism in which leverage and pressure can be applied to the airline to try and get them to move on any proposals. It is an attempt to move the financial forces in a manner that it could effect the bottom line.
 
If a strike is out of the question, then the appearance of readiness in a vacuum of uncertainty can cause a movement in the IAM's direction. If that fails, the leverage once again goes towards the airline.
 
In 2009, the TWU believed a Democratic President was the tonic needed to sway the leverage towards Labor's side, needless to say that was not what transpired. It's getting to the point where this "show" of force is not even causing a tick on Wall Street. Everyone seems to see what path these types of negotiations take and the last one's to realize the reality are the members themselves.
 
We all have to try and get the best deal we can, but too often we try to get the perfect deal....It's not out there. It hasn't been out there since the 1970's.

No joke.  But the fact remains, give the members full disclosure and stop stroking the membership.  They have been stroking about an impasse for a year almost when all parties realize a release, if coming, from the NMB would be coming pretty darn quick if the NMB did it now.  There has been no official impasse.  Every two months the IAM gets iced along with the company, then more meetings are scheduled.  The company is fine with that strategy.  
When nothing happens, the IAM says strike.  That's fine, all I'm saying is to give the members full disclosure and to allow them to vote on the lousy offer and to vote on strike, NOW.  It makes no sense otherwise and it shows AH that the union simply does NOT trust the members.  If the company proposal is for only a couple dimes, then if you bring that back to the membership for a vote and ask for a rejection, you will get that.  No way does the company want the members to know that 2.5 years of negotiations has led up to a proposal for .20 cent pay raise.  AH is calling BS on the IAM, and if the IAM continues to not engage the membership then others will start calling BS as well.   It's pretty easy to play politics for personal gain by pounding the chest and claiming "Strike". 

 

[28L_or_10R?]

This is how many of you will feel when the end comes. http://youtu.be/HD-88a7msKI

 

[roabilly]

I'm very uncomfortable with a paternal style of unionism. I know that isn't old school but I simply am against the "Daddy knows best" style.  Such paternalisms have fallen in our culture where people want choices.
 
All I'm saying is enough of the bull ####.  If the company offer blows, and i'm sure it does, then use that negative as a positive against management and allow the members to see it and vote upon it with a strike vote, and recommend a rejection of the .20 cent pay raise and a Yes to strike.  That would speed things up.  If the IAM says that negotiations are useless, as it said in the press today, then what the hell are we waiting on?  The union has to power to bring the offer back and I doubt management would really like that.  Management apparently is just jerking the IAM off and calling their BS, realizing that the IAM doesn't trust its members.
 
Someone in union leadership is going to have to make a decision.  Waiting another two months on ice is a joke. At some point, it is plausible to think that the TWU will see a mess and will opt out of the association agreement. 
 
At any rate, since last May, our leaders have been saying we are at an impasse.  The problem is that every two months they meet again, and we hear the same things.  I'm not saying I'm right but I would say that most don't really expect the NMB to issue a release this quick [and yes that would be quick] so, in the meantime, can we please have action? If there is an offer, as bad as it is, can we please see it Daddy?

I’m calling BS on this...
 
You are only against the” Daddy knows best” ideology when you are NOT the Daddy! You spent week’s attempting to shove misinformation down our throats regarding the TWU MOU. During that time, you called us liars, morons, pot smokers, drunks, and Kool-aid drinkers! Amazingly, you expected us to just sit on our hands, and accept your”Daddy Nelson knows best” doctrine without challenging, or questioning your logic. When you were proven wrong definitively yesterday...you flipped like a pancake!
 
To all the readers that think people should just get a life, and abandon this forum...
 
The Company would love that, because you would essentially have nothing more than a Public, Tim Nelson Anti-IAM forum that spews misinformation 24/7! Ain’t gonna happen!