2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

There was a buyout of 75k max. The problem was that it was structured so you had to reach a certain sign up level before you would get that. Plus there was a bottom cap that if you signed up for the 75k and the cap wasn't reached you didn't fall to the lower category automatically or weren't offered it. This way the company could hope you just retire if the cap wasn't met
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it sounded good but wasn't efficient. I don't think anyone got the 75k

the ramp chose not to take the buyout at all. Unlike the buyout for other unions on the property, delaneys team opted to fashion it in a pyramid.

 

[WeAAsles]

This was before the ratification of TA II, there was some clause in the agreement that allowed outsourcing. Tim is more familiar with the UA agreement, hopefully he can weigh in.

And here is the latest with UA: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6041217/

Josh

It's a sad position that BK contracts have put us in and I for one do not blame the negotiators for doing the best they can to prevent these closings from happening.

There are many articles extolling the plight of continuing air service to small and mid sized cities today and in the future. Cost and revenue are the main issues. Labor cost is only one component of that. There is also fuel, passenger loads and fares to be considered. Many local municipalities are trying to find funds to subsidies the airlines to continue offering service. If this cannot be achieved the road is to either farm it out or eventually fore-go the feed altogether.

This is the reality we face today and why we are all being pushed into larger cities and hubs.

 

[737823]

It's a sad position that BK contracts have put us in and I for one do not blame the negotiators for doing the best they can to prevent these closings from happening.
There are many articles extolling the plight of continuing air service to small and mid sized cities today and in the future. Cost and revenue are the main issues. Labor cost is only one component of that. There is also fuel, passenger loads and fares to be considered. Many local municipalities are trying to find funds to subsidies the airlines to continue offering service. If this cannot be achieved the road is to either farm it out or eventually fore-go the feed altogether.
This is the reality we face today and why we are all being pushed into larger cities and hubs.

Organizing regionals and ground handlers isn't the answer because all it will do is create an agency conflict (like IAM Air Wisconsin and CWA Piedmont) whereby the union still collects dues while members lose their jobs.

The IAM UAL agreement from October 2013 is inexcusable, UA is not bankrupt, sure their financial performance is lagging but those concessions of scope were extreme and unjustified.

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

Organizing regionals and ground handlers isn't the answer because all it will do is create an agency conflict (like IAM Air Wisconsin and CWA Piedmont) whereby the union still collects dues while members lose their jobs.

The IAM UAL agreement from October 2013 is inexcusable, UA is not bankrupt, sure their financial performance is lagging but those concessions of scope were extreme and unjustified.

Josh

The issue is still related to total costs to continue service in those cities. I do not necessarily believe the decision to outsource is relegated to being a personal one that either the company hates the Union or the union was incompetent to stand against the storm. And they may no longer be in BK but the BK is what gave them the ability to either weaken or strip SCOPE language to make the situation they're in a reality today.

As for organizing the low wage competition I agree if everyone pays the same dues regardless of their pay scale it just becomes a numbers game of headcount. The TWU though within it's dues structure collects 2 times the base hourly wage per month. That IMO provides them more of an emphasis to want better payed members against just having anyone at all to keep the Union funded. Someone who only makes say $8.00 per hour Part time should not pay the same dues as I.

 

[T5towbar]

Hey,where's "Ratify Now" and the rest of the band?

Speaking of "Fresh Wounds",how many stations have been outsourced and how many FT'ers have been broken to PT since this "Fresh Wound" was inflicted?

Over 300+ in my hub broken down to part time (not counting the 150 furloughed when Cargo came in).
This happened BEFORE and AFTER contract signing. We a cut so deep, it isn't funny.

Don't fall for the BS spouting off.

 

[737823]

The issue is still related to total costs to continue service in those cities. I do not necessarily believe the decision to outsource is relegated to being a personal one that either the company hates the Union or the union was incompetent to stand against the storm. And they may no longer be in BK but the BK is what gave them the ability to either weaken or strip SCOPE language to make the situation they're in a reality today.
As for organizing the low wage competition I agree if everyone pays the same dues regardless of their pay scale it just becomes a numbers game of headcount. The TWU though within it's dues structure collects 2 times the base hourly wage per month. That IMO provides them more of an emphasis to want better payed members against just having anyone at all to keep the Union funded. Someone who only makes say $8.00 per hour Part time should not pay the same dues as I.

The IAM disagrees, dues are the average wage so low wage new hires pay disproportionately more. It's a regressive structure.

You recognize UA had stronger SCOPE through bankruptcy than this agreement?

Josh

 

[T5towbar]

Fresh wound.
$ 27.00 an hr 100% sick pay etc cut me a little more

What 27.00? it's 26.00 AFTER 2018 of another contract isn't ratified. But then it will be just the hubs left at this rate.

BTW: sCO always had 100% sick pay.

 

[WeAAsles]

The IAM disagrees, dues are the average wage so low wage new hires pay disproportionately more. It's a regressive structure.

From what I've been told unconfirmed there are only 2 union out there that do not base their dues on one flat rate. For representing unskilled labor a flat rate dues structure is very dangerous with so many people out there willing to do our work for less today. The job market has too many out of work and willing to work for next to nothing.

You recognize UA had stronger SCOPE through bankruptcy than this agreement?

Are you saying that the SCOPE was stronger "after" they had emerged from BK? Are these stations that are closing former Continental stations?

Josh

 

[737823]

SCOPE for sUA/pmUA definitely was stronger before the merger and this agreement. sCO passenger service was unorganized, ramp was newly organized IBT. Admittedly I'm not familiar with the CO IBT agreement but I recall they closed/threatened to close several stations leading upto the vote, yes?

Josh

 

[T5towbar]

If you guy's would look past the attempts to discredit Nelson and look at the look at the real deal on the UA contract, it was a let down to the membership. Nelson, may not win the election but at least he is trying to inform the US members, and if the week leadership we have tries to ram a contract down our throats to at least revolt and vote it down as many times as we have too. I'm ready to strike this company, I'm tired of the disrespect they have for this work group.

IMHO, I'm telling you why the contact was passed for TWO reasons: 1. The money for sUA (ie: retro) 2. The promise (and lie) of LOA's #5 and #6. I almost bought LOA #5 until Tim and others explained it to me in detail. Why was this lie put in the contract? Simple reason, to get "Yes" votes, knowing full well the company was not going to honor it. And sure enough, on the day that the retro payments were being payed out, the cutting began and the reductions to PT happened. People who voted "Yes" who weren't senior enough were shocked and pissed they were being forced to PT. LOA# 6 was put in there so people can move into stations where they wanted to go. Stations like MCO and PHX still have split ops: UA employees working on one side on flights going into ORD; SFO; DEN; IAD - while a vendor does EWR; IAH; and CLE. LOA #6 is supposed to address and fix this. But the company is dragging ass on this.

Look objectively at these items I mentioned, and you will see why some people voted "Yes".

 

[jet job]

Wow I wondered when the Nelson cheerleader would come out. Didn't take long. But with that said Nelson said a few things he is ignorant of or just spinning for his own gain. The scope of the previous ramp contract protected only mainline work. Express was never protected until this contract and will continue to grow in the coming years. The real protection at UA was seniority date of 1994 in the old contract. That has now moved forward to 2006. That means no one that has that date can be furloughed to the street if they want a job. Nelson spouts off about the named cities in the old UA ramp contract. Let's give a little history lesson at this point. The language he refers too was a fence and named the cities that ramp would and could be assigned to with no ramp being assigned to any other city outside of that language. Even our forefathers had the knowledge when it was written that it was not iron clad and added language in the ESOP contract of seniority protection of 1994. Cltrat seems to think the company has the option to make any full timer into part time just because they want to. That is a false belief. Part time at the location is just an option available to an individual that chooses not to go the system.

 

[AANOTOK]

As for organizing the low wage competition I agree if everyone pays the same dues regardless of their pay scale it just becomes a numbers game of headcount. The TWU though within it's dues structure collects 2 times the base hourly wage per month. That IMO provides them more of an emphasis to want better payed members against just having anyone at all to keep the Union funded. Someone who only makes say $8.00 per hour Part time should not pay the same dues as I.

And the International boys should not continue to get raises along with their six figured secretaries while the members take heavy pay and benefit losses. Heck, even the CEO took a cut, although meaningless and symbolic at best...Little and his minions still enjoyed ALL perks and raises.
 
Oops, wrong forum.  B)

 

[T5towbar]

SCOPE for sUA/pmUA definitely was stronger before the merger and this agreement. sCO passenger service was unorganized, ramp was newly organized IBT. Admittedly I'm not familiar with the CO IBT agreement but I recall they closed/threatened to close several stations leading upto the vote, yes?

Josh

Yes.
7 stations were threatened with closure. At least the IBT fought to keep them open.
The IBT contract wasn't the greatest, but we did have some protections for a limited time thru the merger. In my hear of hears, the IBT would have least fought to keep our Cargo, which was a profitable and flourishing operation. No one can disagree with that. Now it is in shambles.

It's funny on retrospect. During the campaign between the IAM and IBT, the IAM spouted off crap about our "comic book" contract. Then after winning the election, our FTW became the blueprint for this crappy contract. How funny......

Why?

 

[WeAAsles]

SCOPE for sUA/pmUA definitely was stronger before the merger and this agreement. sCO passenger service was unorganized, ramp was newly organized IBT. Admittedly I'm not familiar with the CO IBT agreement but I recall they closed/threatened to close several stations leading upto the vote, yes?

Josh

Ok so the pieces of the puzzle seem to be fitting together just a little bit better now from what I'm understanding. CO before they were organized by the IBT did not have a union and therefore had NO contract or contract protection language. Now the two companies have become one but the fact that CO was non union is what is decimating them now. I'm guessing that the people who are receiving the most harm in this are former CO employees? They may have made their own beds unfortunately for being unorganized for so long?

Note to Delta employees and AA agents.

 

[WeAAsles]

And the International boys should not continue to get raises along with their six figured secretaries while the members take heavy pay and benefit losses. Heck, even the CEO took a cut, although meaningless and symbolic at best...Little and his minions still enjoyed ALL perks and raises.
 
Oops, wrong forum.  B)

Little and his minions as you call them are gone now. Let's see what the new administration can do for us moving forward????