2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[mike33]

The twu is obligated. AH doesnt care if the rwu or the association files the single carrier as long as whoever files it also supports the single carrier as it is written.

Im not asking you to rent your brain out to me or an attorney, read the contract and try to understand. CRIPES! Im trying to get you to realize the inevitable truth yet you continually bust my balls.


 

When the Horse tells me this is the way we think its going to go, then i have to conclude that he knows whats happening........ Period. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
In the same section you qoute, why don't you use the whole thing. It also states that "the IAM's position is that USAirways must fulfill its bargaining responsibilities with the IAM BEFORE JCBA talks begin". Did you purposely leave that part out?

of course it says that.
I didnt ask them to "date stamp" stand alone talks. It explicitly say until the nmb determination is a single carrier..
then goes on to say that the iam position is that management should fulfill its bargaining duties.

Pj, what it is saying is that the iam position is to argue for a eelease. And that is true, but if the nmb determines there is a single carrier then the iam will only negotiate stand alone until. Remember, those two sentences are referring to the legal positioning.

Weassles said that the twu and iam can modify the agreement and that is correct.

Does single carrier mean we have to go into joint talks? Nope. The iam negotiated almost one full year after single carrier at united in pre joint taljs until Team Delaney flipped like a pancake and left money on the table for political gain.

 

[Tim Nelson]

This whole "Plan B" thing is a seed planted by Nelson, which he repeated daily. I watched poster, after poster fall for his garbage. It was just like the TWU MOU, and the Association documents that he is getting called out on now. He just repeats false facts, and half truths daily, until they become accepted (At least he thinks so) by gullible readers. 
 
AH must be proud of him...

there you go again. Exactly what do you add other than "Get Nelson"?

Ive made statements and referenced every single one of them. You cant so you suggest everyone is stupid and you blame me.

And i have fully supported asking for a release but subscribing to absolute terms and ultimatums, even at this time, is juvenile and will polarize talks. So we shouldnt be surprised that JG is now offering less and less. The nc has made him an offer he has to refuse, and the nc has drawn the line in the sand and slammed the door. So now things gave deteriorated so bad that we may need to strike and get a hail mary just to chase whatever is remaining on the table. There is a reason why your nitwits got $0 unlike all otherunions at united in prejoint talks.

Tell the truth roa, team delaney got $0 after management kept taking more and more off the table because team delaney put politics over the member. Just like how they are putting politics over the member now.

 

[Tim Nelson]

When the Horse tells me this is the way we think its going to go, then i have to conclude that he knows whats happening........ Period.

Noted

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
The truth is that even though the UA contract sucked ba##s, the UA folks voted it in, heck in the station I work in, they were told EXACTLY what could/probably will happen, and they voted for it. So even though they were FULLY informed, they chose to vote yes, for whatever reason. And keep talking about getting the endorsements from UA dominated locals, you are just trying to ride to their coattails to get into office, because you can't get the US votes, and you know this. But I digress, where does it state that section six talks stop at SCS? It does not. Please show me the vebage that states what you say in the association agrement. And be honest, you don't want to be on the NC, even if RD asked you personally, because you would rather talk sh%t instead of trying to put your idea into real world action, and fail miserably.

i want people to put the bong down and stop putting politics above negotiations.

To that enx, cb has no authority to offer anyone a spot on negotiations. Nonetheless over the course of the last month i engaged the issue of negotiations and mentioned a few things i think could at least engage the members but nobody listened. Not surprisingly, everything i mentioned was immediately discounted by roabilly.

I am convinced, in fact it isnt hard to figure out, that Team Delaney doesnt trust the members one bit.

And it should insult everyone when we learn more about our negotiations from the newspaper articles. As aside, when team delaney says "we are prepared to strike", who are they referring to.....i mean have we even seen any proposal at all? Have we taken a strike vote? Why all the secrets?

Who is jerking who off here....and you think AH has any time for this?

Obviously polarizing talks with ultimatums isnt working.

 

[necigrad]

So I haven't been here in like a week.  Can someone summarize the last 100 or so pages?  Feel free to skip the 700/Tim posts as well as the Tim/Josh posts.

 

[700UW]

I guess Karl Rove is your campaign manager?
 
Stop with the insults, its not professional, maybe you are the one smoking the bong, since you conveniently make up things and leave other things out.
 
Myself, ROA and PJ have called you out on your so called lapses or fibs.

 

[rockit2]

Nelson.........I am concerned about the ultimatum strategy, it doesn't seem to be working. You mentioned the IAM got zero at UA before joint talks , you also mentioned that the F/A'S  and mechanics got 10% plus and other items before joint talks. Why didn't the IAM get anything?.

 

[ograc]

I put up my bio on the link that is below every post of mine, it clearly gives a window into my personal life. Says that I have 3 children, and a masters education and even gives the proficiency.  Roabilly is just being ridiculous.  Ridiculous because I haven't made a campaign issue about my personal life, including my personal education experiences.   Some folks have been blessed with enough time and money to pursue formal education.  Some have received their education from their life experiences and how they were raised.  Some have the best of both worlds.    There are candidates that I support 100% on my team that have no formal education but have a wealth of integrity that won't allow them to make some of the same decisions that our opponents have made.  And they have a wealth of determination that they are eager to grow and learn even after they get elected, if so blessed.  
 
Roabilly is making a issue of my personal life because they have no other option since the team he supports hasn't nothing to show for 6 years of futility.  OTOH,  when the U4C team starts their campaign, we don't have to attack personalhoods, we will point to the scoreboard and show clearly that over the past 6 years,  that feeling everyone has in their gut about not getting anything for their dues....is real and why.  No sir, we won't have to rely on a campaign about where someone went to high school, college, or graduate school. 

An incumbent candidate's campaign platform is, and subsequently should be, based on past accomplishments and performance. Let the chips fall where they may. 

 

[ograc]

I put up my bio on the link that is below every post of mine, it clearly gives a window into my personal life. Says that I have 3 children, and a masters education and even gives the proficiency.  Roabilly is just being ridiculous.  Ridiculous because I haven't made a campaign issue about my personal life, including my personal education experiences.   Some folks have been blessed with enough time and money to pursue formal education.  Some have received their education from their life experiences and how they were raised.  Some have the best of both worlds.    There are candidates that I support 100% on my team that have no formal education but have a wealth of integrity that won't allow them to make some of the same decisions that our opponents have made.  And they have a wealth of determination that they are eager to grow and learn even after they get elected, if so blessed.  
 
Roabilly is making a issue of my personal life because they have no other option since the team he supports hasn't nothing to show for 6 years of futility.  OTOH,  when the U4C team starts their campaign, we don't have to attack personalhoods, we will point to the scoreboard and show clearly that over the past 6 years,  that feeling everyone has in their gut about not getting anything for their dues....is real and why.  No sir, we won't have to rely on a campaign about where someone went to high school, college, or graduate school. 

Likewise, opposition candidates have the luxury of playing armchair quarterbacks. Second guessing the actions of current leadership and promising, sometimes hollow, goals and expectations. Let the chips fall where they may. History has shown, that despite change in leadership, the welfare and common good of the Fleet Service has continued to be the same. With that being said... maybe the IAM and the current leadership isn't enemy #1 and the root of the problem. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson.........I am concerned about the ultimatum strategy, it doesn't seem to be working. You mentioned the IAM got zero at UA before joint talks , you also mentioned that the F/A'S  and mechanics got 10% plus and other items before joint talks. Why didn't the IAM get anything?.

finally a non political, and very good question.

rockit2, in normal section 6 negotiations, a company realizes that once it signs a contract that it doesnt have to deal with a particular union for quite a while. However in negotiations leading up to joint talks, due to a merger, a company knows that as doon as it signs a contract, that it will have to immediately go right back in negotiations the very next week for a joint contract. Because of that, managements are uncomfortable giving comprehensive increases in each contract article, thus essentually, Team Delaney has proposed an ultimatum that management has to refuse due to the reality of pre joint talks.

At united, management offered 12%, keep medical the same, more job security to Team Delaney. Due to politics, delaney demanded $27, free medical, more everything. Buys a helluva lot of votes when one promises treasure island in pre joint talks. Eventually management at united just offered 12%. Then offered 10% only...then $0. Other unions didnt put politics and votes ahead so their members got a first bite contract.

Flash forward to usairways and if someone wants to exploit members for political gain then the easiest way to buy votes is tell them all the wonderful things you are going to get them. I lose votes by arguing against the ultimatum strategy but i dont play politics with peoples lives and i dont like the idea of polarized talks.
But hey, some people will put political gain ahead and promise the world. And because of that, managements offer now is polar opposite. Hey, if mentioning strike every second month will work..then great. But the realities are that the political bong needs to be put down and things need to be alot more open than ultimatum strategies. Ultimatum strategies only work to buy votes. In the meantime, we are on the verge of getting goose-egged.

 

[P. REZ]

there you go again. Exactly what do you add other than "Get Nelson"?

Ive made statements and referenced every single one of them. You cant so you suggest everyone is stupid and you blame me.

And i have fully supported asking for a release but subscribing to absolute terms and ultimatums, even at this time, is juvenile and will polarize talks. So we shouldnt be surprised that JG is now offering less and less. The nc has made him an offer he has to refuse, and the nc has drawn the line in the sand and slammed the door. So now things gave deteriorated so bad that we may need to strike and get a hail mary just to chase whatever is remaining on the table. There is a reason why your nitwits got $0 unlike all otherunions at united in prejoint talks.

Tell the truth roa, team delaney got $0 after management kept taking more and more off the table because team delaney put politics over the member. Just like how they are putting politics over the member now.

Tim,
 
The Company offered us a POS concessionary agreement and we have dug in. You are calling it an ultimatum, I am calling it, "we are not accepting your POS concessionary agreement, try again." I would consider a fair offer by the Company. 
 
P. Rez    

 

[ograc]

I like this one. Yep it's all the negotiators fault. Not the BANKRUPTCIES and those pesky laws put in place to neuter us. Nope. It's a couple of guys who ramrodded the entire thing down the ENTIRE industries throat.

Oh yea those company reps laugh at us when we act this way. You can bet your booty on that one. Smarten up people.

The companies are playing us like a deck of cards. They're cashing in and we're broke.

 

[robbedagain]

thank you cb and prez and the rest of the nc team   thats what we need   a fair contract   not a concessionary pos one

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
The Company offered us a POS concessionary agreement and we have dug in. You are calling it an ultimatum, I am calling it, "we are not accepting your POS concessionary agreement, try again." I would consider a fair offer by the Company. 
 
P. Rez    

You guys put politics over the members. Bottom line.  Buying votes by promising treasure Island in pre joint talks is proving costly to the membership, whether they know it or not.  Of course AH is offering up a POS contract right back at you.  You guys want polarized talks with ultimatums, I think AH can play that game pretty well.  What did you expect from AH?  You guys are making proposals that any management team would have to refuse in pre joint talks.  And are you surprised that AH is wanting the same thing that Team Delaney gave United in pre joint talks [insert $0 here]?
 
 Keep promising a pre joint contract proposal with a 15% pay raise and scope, and weigh it down with another dozen paid days off and a 20% boost in retirement and let's see how quick this whole thing will drown. Never mind that the timelines are also approaching.
 
But hey, nobody can stop you guys from making proposals that bring you votes.  BTW,  leaving the membership out of things is never good at this point.  Our members have been kept in the dark and haven't a clue on what AH proposed.  In fact, were you in the negotiation room at all last week? You even have to rely on TR and SP and get everything second hand.