2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[mike33]

You guys put politics over the members. Bottom line.  Buying votes by promising treasure Island in pre joint talks is proving costly to the membership, whether they know it or not.  Of course AH is offering up a POS contract right back at you.  You guys want polarized talks with ultimatums, I think AH can play that game pretty well.  What did you expect from AH?  You guys are making proposals that any management team would have to refuse in pre joint talks.  And are you surprised that AH is wanting the same thing that Team Delaney gave United in pre joint talks [insert $0 here]?
 
 Keep promising a pre joint contract proposal with a 15% pay raise and scope, and weigh it down with another dozen paid days off and a 20% boost in retirement and let's see how quick this whole thing will drown. Never mind that the timelines are also approaching.
 
But hey, nobody can stop you guys from making proposals that bring you votes.  BTW,  leaving the membership out of things is never good at this point.  Our members have been kept in the dark and haven't a clue on what AH proposed.  In fact, were you in the negotiation room at all last week? You even have to rely on TR and SP and get everything second hand.

  There it is again..... So matter of fact .. What gives you the right to say its so?  That is the problem i have with you tim.  Maybe you should just tell me that I'm gonna eat crow !....  But you can't do that because that statement could go either way, couldn't it?
  The same horses mouth told me that our NC is nothing like UA's. Don't confuse the 2. I know it's frustrating for you to understand, but maybe he made a good point?. Along with the single carrier issue.

 

[Tim Nelson]

  There it is again..... So matter of fact .. What gives you the right to say its so?  That is the problem i have with you tim.  Maybe you should just tell me that I'm gonna eat crow !....  But you can't do that because that statement could go either way, couldn't it?
  The same horses mouth told me that our NC is nothing like UA's. Don't confuse the 2. I know it's frustrating for you to understand, but maybe he made a good point?. Along with the single carrier issue.

Mike, the writing is on the contract. I'm just reading it.  Timelines are approaching Mike.  If you read it, you would acknowledge it.  I really don't care what horses mouth you listen to because it's all talk.  I go by what is written down brother.  I'm not suggesting you to eat crow, I'm staying objective.  But remember, for you to support your position that the TWU won't file AND that a resulting resolution won't happen in 30 days, then you are saying that an arbitrator will violate a pre determined contract timeline. 
 
One thing I haven't seen from you or anyone who disputes what I say, is references to support or counter what has clearly been signed. It is a matter of written fact, if you have a problem with me as a result of that then that's not my problem.  What you should be asking though, is "Why the hell did the IAM attach a Q & A saying that it will only negotiate a stand alone "UNTIL" the NMB rules on a single carrier?"   What you really should be asking is "Why would an arbitrator intentionally violate a contract timeline?"    YOu should be asking those things instead of continuing to bust my balls.  But I'm used to that, the truth offends folks.

 

[mike33]

Mike, the writing is on the contract. I'm just reading it.  Timelines are approaching Mike.  If you read it, you would acknowledge it.  I really don't care what horses mouth you listen to because it's all talk.  I go by what is written down brother.  I'm not suggesting you to eat crow, I'm staying objective.  But remember, for you to support your position that the TWU won't file AND that a resulting resolution won't happen in 30 days, then you are saying that an arbitrator will violate a pre determined contract timeline. 
 
One thing I haven't seen from you or anyone who disputes what I say, is references to support or counter what has clearly been signed. It is a matter of written fact, if you have a problem with me as a result of that then that's not my problem.  What you should be asking though, is "Why the hell did the IAM attach a Q & A saying that it will only negotiate a stand alone "UNTIL" the NMB rules on a single carrier?"   What you really should be asking is "Why would an arbitrator intentionally violate a contract timeline?"    YOu should be asking those things instead of continuing to bust my balls.  But I'm used to that, the truth offends folks.

 I concur   i have read it. The red herring is the " Association" that trumps the " TWU ". thats why the IAM has control over the first 2 + yrs. Thats why it was written that way i've been told. It never gets to the arbitrator. IMHO........But what do i know. Im not running for squat. I leave the legaleeeze to the lawyers. 
 
 I have thought about it a lot and have come to the conclusion like this...........
 
 If the TWU has so many more members than the IAM?. Doesn't it seem logical that they should have 1st control of the association?...well someone thought that if the IAM had first control maybe ...just maybe...it trumped the MOU?.....JMO

 

[P. REZ]

You guys put politics over the members. Bottom line.  Buying votes by promising treasure Island in pre joint talks is proving costly to the membership, whether they know it or not.  Of course AH is offering up a POS contract right back at you.  You guys want polarized talks with ultimatums, I think AH can play that game pretty well.  What did you expect from AH?  You guys are making proposals that any management team would have to refuse in pre joint talks.  And are you surprised that AH is wanting the same thing that Team Delaney gave United in pre joint talks [insert $0 here]?
 
 Keep promising a pre joint contract proposal with a 15% pay raise and scope, and weigh it down with another dozen paid days off and a 20% boost in retirement and let's see how quick this whole thing will drown. Never mind that the timelines are also approaching.
 
But hey, nobody can stop you guys from making proposals that bring you votes.  BTW,  leaving the membership out of things is never good at this point.  Our members have been kept in the dark and haven't a clue on what AH proposed.  In fact, were you in the negotiation room at all last week? You even have to rely on TR and SP and get everything second hand.

Tim,
 
You can believe that what I'm saying is for votes but the reality is that we are willing to negotiate a fair contract but the Company will not move from their last offer which is a POS concessionary BS offer. Fact. Let me reiterate, They WILL NOT move off their BS, POS concessionary offer. Am I being clear enough?
 
P. Rez    

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
You can believe that what I'm saying is for votes but the reality is that we are willing to negotiate a fair contract but the Company will not move from their last offer which is a POS concessionary BS offer. Fact. Let me reiterate, They WILL NOT move off their BS, POS concessionary offer. Am I being clear enough?
 
P. Rez    

Pat
Why would they? You guys said you weren't moving either.   I think we can agree that the NC is very clear on that.  Plus, it appears to most that you guys don't trust the membership. Leaving the membership out of being able to see the POS AH offer isn't the best thing.  At any rate, where are we at?  You guys don't move and AH doesn't move.   And how long are the TWU members going to sit back and watch all of this with hundreds of workers laid off.  I commend them for supporting us this far.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 I concur   i have read it. The red herring is the " Association" that trumps the " TWU ". thats why the IAM has control over the first 2 + yrs. Thats why it was written that way i've been told. It never gets to the arbitrator. IMHO........But what do i know. Im not running for squat. I leave the legaleeeze to the lawyers. 
 
 I have thought about it a lot and have come to the conclusion like this...........
 
 If the TWU has so many more members than the IAM?. Doesn't it seem logical that they should have 1st control of the association?...well someone thought that if the IAM had first control maybe ...just maybe...it trumped the MOU?.....JMO

The association doesn't trump SQUAT.  But we have been over this and you continue to believe what you want to believe, i.e., a full blown lie.  When folks are willing to drink kool aid, they become willingly ignorant. Whoever told you that is lying to you 100%.  It's actually quite ridiculous.  The Associaiton has NOTHING to do with the contractual obligations of the TWU.  I repeat, NOTHING.   BTW,  it has nothing to do with me running to serve you.  Actually I'm serving you now and being honest with you, but you don't know it.  Others are blowing smoke up your ass and it really doesn't matter who they are.  It is written.
 
At any rate, instead of Team Delaney using you , Roabily, and others, as a mouthpiece, why don't we ask CB or Prez.   Remember, Prez and CB are on here but why haven't they confirmed?
 
Hey Prez, does the association trump the TWU MOU?  Yes or No?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Likewise, opposition candidates have the luxury of playing armchair quarterbacks. Second guessing the actions of current leadership and promising, sometimes hollow, goals and expectations. Let the chips fall where they may. History has shown, that despite change in leadership, the welfare and common good of the Fleet Service has continued to be the same. With that being said... maybe the IAM and the current leadership isn't enemy #1 and the root of the problem. 

The reality is that the current situation doesn't even make anyone a armchair QB, rather a center bending over.  For 6 years, the undeniable and irrefutable hose job at HAL UAL and now the same path at US AIRWAYS is killing our craft.  One doesn't have to be a candidate or arm chair anything to feel and know what has happened is destroying our craft.  When union officers put politics ahead of the members, it destroys negotiations.  You want the play call at United?  Call for automatic increases to everything in a contract during pre joint talks and I can assure you that it will KILL most everything on the table and polarize talks. But it will buy votes!   
 
Same play call here,  Ask for automatic increases in everything with pre joint talks,i.e., , 20% retirement boost, double the scope, 12 more paid days off a year,  15% pay raise. Sure as hell makes me the bad guy calling bull sh*t on ridiculousness.   Then blame it on AH for not granting all of these wonderful things.
 
But It killed pre joint talks and the members suffered great pain with $0 at United.  They left 10% on the table with the last offer and got $0. Nothing.  It wasn't their money, they were making $100,000 or had potential to.  But the members at United had to go hungry another 3 years with nothing.   If they keep polarizing things with demanding ultimatum strategies with automatic increases in everything, and order management with ultimatums then I can assure you that whatever good things we may have got will not be available.  Due to the ultimatum strategies of buying votes, it may be very unlikely that we can now attain AMR wages at this point.  In the end, they will blame AH and then if we don't get a release, they will blame the NMB, blame me, blame everyone including the dog.  That's all they do.  All they have done is blame the world over the last 6 years to avoid any accountability at all.

 

[robbedagain]

you know what tim,  I think personally that our members have had enough of the sh!t fits that got HAL and UAL and not only that but theyre standing their ground  the NC Team is doing exactly that and may be  just may be it will be enough for the NMB to say to the donkeys that "we are going to go ahead and release both IAM groups together given that we are at an impasse"      I believe we as members of the 141  and I believe members of 142 have never been more prepared to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH      F  THIS F...KIN PLACE   
 
secondly Tim,  even if its Donkey Drunken Dope Headed Parker and drug gang idea that may be they are trying their best to get rid of the IAM never expecting the TWU to join forces with the IAM  and now theyre like in the ICU with a heavy dose of the drug withdrawal that they have no brains to figure the next step  and therefore theyre just waiting n waiting to see how far they can shove the NMB  and may be the NMB sees that now.  
 
So  I think as does many of the current members here and in the system believe that as of now our team has our backs.    Theres a reason why the IAM has the head of the house for the first 2 plus yrs 

 

[P. REZ]

Pat
Why would they? You guys said you weren't moving either.   I think we can agree that the NC is very clear on that.  Plus, it appears to most that you guys don't trust the membership. Leaving the membership out of being able to see the POS AH offer isn't the best thing.  At any rate, where are we at?  You guys don't move and AH doesn't move.   And how long are the TWU members going to sit back and watch all of this with hundreds of workers laid off.  I commend them for supporting us this far.

Tim,
 
All I can say is that we were willing to close the gap and got a big eff u from the Company, they are dead set at offering anything other than what they have offered, a POS. 
 
On a side note, everything you post on the subject makes me think you are having conversations with AH, you were originally telling us to hold the line and be patient and don't panic, now for the last several weeks you post as though you are getting the Company side and arguing against us. I don't know, just a gut feeling on that.  
 
And for the record, you make valid points on some issues and I do hear you. I am not out to get Timmy. I have told you before that you are intelligent but use it in a negative way which divides this membership.
 
Calling it as I see it.
 
P. Rez

 

[700UW]

Tim,
 
On a side note, everything you post on the subject makes me think you are having conversations with AH,
 
Calling it as I see it.
 
P. Rez

I been saying that for over a month, I totally agree Pat.

 

[Tim Nelson]

you know what tim,  I think personally that our members have had enough of the sh!t fits that got HAL and UAL and not only that but theyre standing their ground  the NC Team is doing exactly that and may be  just may be it will be enough for the NMB to say to the donkeys that "we are going to go ahead and release both IAM groups together given that we are at an impasse"      I believe we as members of the 141  and I believe members of 142 have never been more prepared to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH      F  THIS F...KIN PLACE   
 
secondly Tim,  even if its Donkey Drunken Dope Headed Parker and drug gang idea that may be they are trying their best to get rid of the IAM never expecting the TWU to join forces with the IAM  and now theyre like in the ICU with a heavy dose of the drug withdrawal that they have no brains to figure the next step  and therefore theyre just waiting n waiting to see how far they can shove the NMB  and may be the NMB sees that now.  
 
So  I think as does many of the current members here and in the system believe that as of now our team has our backs.    Theres a reason why the IAM has the head of the house for the first 2 plus yrs 

Let's hope so

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
 
All I can say is that we were willing to close the gap and got a big eff u from the Company, they are dead set at offering anything other than what they have offered, a POS. 
 
On a side note, everything you post on the subject makes me think you are having conversations with AH, you were originally telling us to hold the line and be patient and don't panic, now for the last several weeks you post as though you are getting the Company side and arguing against us. I don't know, just a gut feeling on that.  
 
And for the record, you make valid points on some issues and I do hear you. I am not out to get Timmy. I have told you before that you are intelligent but use it in a negative way which divides this membership.
 
Calling it as I see it.
 
P. Rez

I don't get the "Get Timmy" spin from you. We just disagree on some style points that I think are critical. I also continue to support what is being asked, but I would rather there be some openness, as opposed to ultimatums and rhetoric that is picking up at the table,  and I wish that the members were more informed of the proposals.
 
Funny about AH conversations.  No sir.  Just pointing to reality. It's a first bite merger negotiations and you guys are wishing upon a star that's all.  You will get votes for doing so, and I look really bad, but the members will suffer for it, so I'm not willing to look good promising treasure Island  Same play call at United Pat.  Due to politics, Team Delaney ended up getting goose-egged in first bite.  Asking for treasure Island and gaining a lot of political steam, then after an election, $0.  

 

[737823]

I guess Karl Rove is your campaign manager?
 
Stop with the insults, its not professional, maybe you are the one smoking the bong, since you conveniently make up things and leave other things out.
 
Myself, ROA and PJ have called you out on your so called lapses or fibs.

You aren't even voting in the election, let the 141 members decide. Afterall you said you wouldn't comment on the UA agreement until after the members voted (you did anyway), why are you now obsessed with Tim bashing?

Josh

 

[700UW]

You aren't even voting in the election, let the 141 members decide. Afterall you said you wouldn't comment on the UA agreement until after the members voted (you did anyway), why are you now obsessed with Tim bashing?

Josh

And neither are you.
 
And its my right to post or not to post, you cant tell me what to do, so get use to it.
 
Go stalk someone else.
 
You are just a "passenger", you dont know the history of his antics that have harmed the membership.
 
Get back to work and earn some money to pay all the fraud, fines and wrongful death suit that your alleged employer is guilty of.

 

[737823]

And neither are you.

I have never indicated either way about Tim and an election, I have spoken on his character on this forum and what I have read about him. I'm not voting I will let the 141 members decide.

Josh