2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[mike33]

So again, can anyone on here tell me if its foreseeable that the US IAM ramp workers will have a better/higher contract than what is in place for TWU AA rampers?  Or is this all a ploy to get a new contract for BOTH the IAM/TWU ramp?

I am going thru both contracts to determine that . There are things that AA doesn't have like no 2x...max is 1.5x. There transfer system is a little different also. but this is what really scares me and needs to be addressed at the diststrict level.
 
TWU
STRUCK WORK  in the TWU agreement!  
 
     ARTICLE 33 - NO STRIKE - NO LOCKOUT



[SIZE=12pt]It is the intent of the parties to this Agreement that the procedures in this Agreement will serve as a means of amicable settlement of all disputes that may arise between them, and, therefore: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](1) The Company will neither cause nor permit a lockout during the life of this Agreement, and [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](2) Neither the Union nor the employees will engage in a strike, sit-down, walkout, stoppage, slowdown, or curtailment of work for any reason during the life of this Agreement. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Question : I see no " Wholly Owned Carriers" in Art.33. It just refers to THE COMPANY and is not addressed in the M.O.U......[/SIZE]
 
 
IAM
 

1. 
   The Company shall not perform "Struck Work" of Wholly
   
2. 
   6  Owned Carriers and ofMDA. "Struck work" is Fleet Service
   
3. 
   7  work traditionally and regularly performed by a Wholly
   
4. 
   8  Owned Carrier or MDA where and during the period the
   
5. 
   9  Fleet Service employees of that Wholly Owned Carrier or
   
6. 
   10  MDA are engaged in a lawful strike, and where the
   
7. 
   11  Company has not previously performed the work in
   
8. 
   12  question. There shall be no prohibition against a concerted
   
9. 
   13  refusal o f employees o f the Company to perform Struck
   
10. 
    14  Work. Moreover, the Company will not hire employees of
    
11. 
    15  Wholly Owned Carriers or MDA to perform Fleet Service
    
12. 
    16  work at the Company during a period when the Fleet Service
    
13. 
    17  [SIZE=15pt]employees are engaged in a lawful strike[/SIZE]. 
    

 Page 5 of your contract !
 
This needs to be addressed

 

[DFWFSC]

So again, can anyone on here tell me if its foreseeable that the US IAM ramp workers will have a better/higher contract than what is in place for TWU AA rampers?  Or is this all a ploy to get a new contract for BOTH the IAM/TWU ramp?

This is only my personal opinion....I think the company will give you guys the same money we get and maybe even more, but their gonna want you to give up a bunch of stuff to get it.  If you put enough money out there, the hubs will take it cause they could care less about the small stations getting outsourced. Maybe not this contract or the next, but sooner or later they will outsource any city with less that 20 mainline like they did at AA. There are way too many large RJs on order and it's getting harder to find a small station with 20 mainline's a day.

 

[mike33]

This is only my personal opinion....I think the company will give you guys the same money we get and maybe even more, but their gonna want you to give up a bunch of stuff to get it.  If you put enough money out there, the hubs will take it cause they could care less about the small stations getting outsourced. Maybe not this contract or the next, but sooner or later they will outsource any city with less that 20 mainline like they did at AA. There are way too many large RJs on order and it's getting harder to find a small station with 20 mainline's a day.

Totally agree! It is only a matter of time, but the devil is in the Scope and most don't take the time to evaluate that and can't put a $$ value on it as a group. The company does and thats why they want it back so badly!
They would love to get that 56 flights a week changed to a daily amount like in the TWU contract.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Totally agree! It is only a matter of time, but the devil is in the Scope and most don't take the time to evaluate that and can't put a $$ value on it as a group. The company does and thats why they want it back so badly!

the last proposal had a sorta truce. AH didnt ask to contract anything but the negotiation team wasnt as aggressive as it should have been.
At any rate, imo, AH played our nc and this is actually the second impasse since they F everything up after the first time they claimed impasse by proposing lower cost ta's and showing movement when AH still didnt move. We pissed away 9 months and the nmb isnt to blame. I just hope we dont put out an impasse a third time. We have some real stupid sh#ts in negotiations.
whatever the case, SCOPE HAS TO BE INCREASED. Im tired of these dopes F everything up at united and F everything up here.
they better ask for dispensation and lrverage their positions with the intl. There is going to be an intl election so sito isnt in any position to continue being a D.
$100 a week isnt going to cut it for our members who are already starving so lets step up and make sure we increase our support if a strike happens.
remember, both iam groups will not go on strikd and i hope the leadership educates our membershop about yhis and what a secondary strike may look like. Thus far too much bull **** and little to no education.

 

[Black Magic]

Interesting posts and food for thought Mike and DFW.  My personal opinion is leaning to that IAM and TWU are working together in trying to get a new contract for both groups with the strike threat from IAM.  But in the meantime the IAM ramp will be held hostage an immeasurable amount of time.

 

[700UW]

 

[mike33]

Interesting posts and food for thought Mike and DFW.  My personal opinion is leaning to that IAM and TWU are working together in trying to get a new contract for both groups with the strike threat from IAM.  But in the meantime the IAM ramp will be held hostage an immeasurable amount of time.

The real test if it lasts that long is whether the TWU is bound by the MOU of declaring SCS within 6 months. I'm no lawyer but nobody has confirmed or denied that is wouldn't have to. Just and expression of their opinion that " it's a good thing ".

 

[Tim Nelson]

The real test if it lasts that long is weather the TWU is bound by the MOU of declaring SCS within 6 months. I'm no lawyer but nobody has confirmed or denied that is wouldn't have to. Just and expression of their opinion that " it's a good thing ".

of course it is 100%. Dont believe prez talk about how he told dp that he isnt getting his scs application until a ta.
if the twu violates the mou, then the twu will go broke because the company wont stop paying the 4.3% attached to that but will instead force a judge to have the twu pay for all damages for breaking the mou.
the union leadership is so full of sh#t. Same sorta bull s they talked at united.

What may happen, and probably likely, is that obamas nmb will delay the processing of the scs application so im not too worried.

 

[Jester]

All good points. This is what the company looks at is the total compensation package. Everything is cost out. Having said that though. We should exceed AA in a total compensation package because they have a bankrupt contract and we aren't in bankruptcy anymore. But your right. Many people only look at the money.

 
CB,
 
I completely agree that one needs to look at the whole compensation package, instead of just the topped out wage.  As the Company insists on being cost-neutral relative to AA FSAs, it might be worth some consideration to provide the estimated hourly cost differences between the two work groups?
 
For example, and I am completely pulling numbers out of thin air or making general estimates, but if we start with the topped-out hourly base pay:
 
 
Est. Hourly Costs                  US         AA       
Topped-Out Wage        $   20.50  $   23.00
Health Insurance           $     6.00  $     5.00
Pension                         $     1.00  $          -  
401K Match                   $           -    $     0.80
Vacation                        $     2.00  $     2.00
FICA, SS, UE, etc.         $     3.00  $     3.50
Overtime                       $     0.75  $     0.50
Holiday Pay                   $     0.50  $     0.75
Shift Pay                        $           -    $     1.00      
TOTAL                           $   33.75  $   36.55
                                  
Again, these are purely fictional numbers, so no one go posting them in breakrooms.  However, I think it would allow the Membership to understand and make a judgment as to wage versus other benefits. Also I think the Company would love to inform the Membership, not to mention, the general public, as to the costs of hiring a FSA to make their case about being reasonable.
 
My proposal is not perfect as it does not consider intangibles related to scope, nor would everyone be making the topped-out wage, especially if the length of time to be topped-out changes.  However, it is a starting point instead of making vague, general statements about wages vs. benefits without having realistic numbers to compare.

 

[mike33]

 
CB,
 
I completely agree that one needs to look at the whole compensation package, instead of just the topped out wage.  As the Company insists on being cost-neutral relative to AA FSAs, it might be worth some consideration to provide the estimated hourly cost differences between the two work groups?
 
For example, and I am completely pulling numbers out of thin air or making general estimates, but if we start with the topped-out hourly base pay:
 
 
Est. Hourly Costs                  US         AA       
Topped-Out Wage        $   20.50  $   23.00
Health Insurance           $     6.00  $     5.00
Pension                         $     1.00  $          -  
401K Match                   $           -    $     0.80
Vacation                        $     2.00  $     2.00
FICA, SS, UE, etc.         $     3.00  $     3.50
Overtime                       $     0.75  $     0.50
Holiday Pay                   $     0.50  $     0.75
Shift Pay                        $           -    $     1.00      
TOTAL                           $   33.75  $   36.55
                                  
Again, these are purely fictional numbers, so no one go posting them in breakrooms.  However, I think it would allow the Membership to understand and make a judgment as to wage versus other benefits. Also I think the Company would love to inform the Membership, not to mention, the general public, as to the costs of hiring a FSA to make their case about being reasonable.
 
My proposal is not perfect as it does not consider intangibles related to scope, nor would everyone be making the topped-out wage, especially if the length of time to be topped-out changes.  However, it is a starting point instead of making vague, general statements about wages vs. benefits without having realistic numbers to compare.

Thats a good point. We would have to get an AA FSC to post his numbers from his pay to evaluate and compare....anyone from AA interested in doing that?  We should of course start at the topout. Anything else would be convoluted.
 
  But then again, we should be talking about " OUR " fair contract. We are not in BK and AA should be brought up to our scales. 
 
  Bottom line is AH and SJ want us to fold into a BK contract. We are not in BK. Why would we want to do that? The company got what they wanted 6 yrs ago. Why should we succumb to the same things now?....We have earned everything we deserve and that includes OUR SCOPE. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Thats a good point. We would have to get an AA FSC to post his numbers from his pay to evaluate and compare....anyone from AA interested in doing that?  We should of course start at the topout. Anything else would be convoluted.
 
  But then again, we should be talking about " OUR " fair contract. We are not in BK and AA should be brought up to our scales. 
 
  Bottom line is AH and SJ want us to fold into a BK contract. We are not in BK. Why would we want to do that? The company got what they wanted 6 yrs ago. Why should we succumb to the same things now?....We have earned everything we deserve and that includes OUR SCOPE.

+1
sAA is a bankrupt ta. It is absolutely mind boggling why our nc keeps playing into AH hands. Leads make another $1.79 i believe but our nc did in fact ask for that full lead premium.
While we cant short change wage, scope has to be number one. Unfortunately the last proposal didnt adequately address this.

 

[P. REZ]

of course it is 100%. Dont believe prez talk about how he told dp that he isnt getting his scs application until a ta.
if the twu violates the mou, then the twu will go broke because the company wont stop paying the 4.3% attached to that but will instead force a judge to have the twu pay for all damages for breaking the mou.
the union leadership is so full of sh#t. Same sorta bull s they talked at united.

What may happen, and probably likely, is that obamas nmb will delay the processing of the scs application so im not too worried.

Tim,
 
I did indeed tell DP that the IAM would not cooperate. There are numerous Union leaders that witnessed this including VH.
 
Carry on

 

[Black Magic]

Looking into the future..One must note that the airline industry has consolidated itself nicely to make record profits even greater than there is today.  Reduced competition is only going to drive airfares up creating profits not seen since deregulation imo.  A good contract should represent these changes coming.  The AA one doesn't represent it imo.

 

[mike33]

Tim,
 
I did indeed tell DP that the IAM would not cooperate. There are numerous Union leaders that witnessed this including VH.
 
Carry on

Rez,
  I don't think it was whether you said it, just whether it will actually happen before a TA

 

[P. REZ]

AA contractual provisions

1. scope 49 weekly for 17 remaining stations until day before amendable date in 2017, then 105 weekly. 140 weekly to get work back.

2. lead pay $1.50

3. $0.30 longevity at 20 years

4. top out $22.53 today, $23.00 9/14, avg. of UA, DL and US on 9/15

5. shift diff. $0.01 noon to 5 pm start, $0.02 5pm to 6am start

6. 1 and 1/2 times max OT payment

7. 5 holidays, if worked 1 and 1/2 times plus 8 hrs. holiday pay

8. No comp time

9. 17-24 years gets 4 weeks vacation, 25+ years gets 5 weeks vacation

10. 10 year recall rights

11. sick leave accrual 5 per year, paid at 100%

12. insurance 80/20 employee $70.69, employee/spouse $183.81, family $247.43

13. pension frozen, 5.5% matching 401k

I believe these numbers to be accurate.

P. Rez