2014 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

Ok, cool.  Someone said somewhere along the line that a rep dropped in from time to time..  Sorry.   B)

That would be Cactusboy53. Until he dropped out of sight and quit donating to Leonidas.

 

[A320 Driver]

DOH is DOA. APA will never agree to that, period, end of story.  Dream on….  Well, maybe………...
 
Unless there's a 40 year fence, porous one way with APA access to any new equipment at any base (think A350), base lock, flying protections, and every system upgrade offered to AA pilots first for the next 39.5 years.
 
I guess this is the C and R luvthe9 had in mind?

Sounds like APAs opener maybe???

 

[snapthis]

It is that 00.01 that can really bite you hard.

So, you don't like dealing with percentiles...
 
Absolutes maybe?
 
Are you Mike Cleary?
 
Y or N?

 

[snapthis]

Never said USAPA created anything. But you have to start someplace and it won't be 2005.

What year?
 
2014?

 

[algflyr]

 

 
AA, I don't think you understand how the arbitration that produced the Nic list was structured and why it is no longer valid. Let me try to explain it in another way. Follow me for a minute and tell me what you think in a hypothetical scenario.
 
 
 
 
I'm with you so far.
 
 
 
 
 
Lets take the combination of AA and TWA. I'm gonna make-up a scenario that has similar circumstances. While this is not the way it went down, let's assume for this scenario that it did happen this way. Although the TWA pilots were not COMPLETELY stapled, I think it's close enough for everyone to realize they lost a LOT in the SLI with AA.
 
 
 
Well, the wheels are already coming off here because you are believing what someone has told you.  The TWA deal was an asset purchase.  TWA filed for bankruptcy and AA provided Debtor in possession financing.  Also referred to DIP financing.  TWA then went through the BK process and was essentially broken up into pieces.  AA purchased enough pieces in the auction to maintain the SLT hub.  TWA pilots had no airline to fly for at this point and a conditional job offer that was offered required them to waive their LPP's.  A significant portion of their fleet was disposed of, they got a huge raise, and then 9-11 hit.  Timing wasn't on their side..  Today, nothing resembling TWA is part of the AA network, to include the jets.  TWA pilots sued everyone they could and the SLI has stood the test of time and the courts.  The fact that you think they got a raw deal doesn't contribute to the premise or the argument you're about to present, different animal completely, but, I'm still with you.  
 
 
 
 
 
Let's say the AA-TWA SLI went to an arbitrator. The arbitrator ruled that the TWA pilots would get one of two things. 1. They would get straight DOH in the SLI provided TWA, within one year, could emerge from BK and show a profit, proving they were a viable business. If after that one year, they could NOT meet that requirement, they would 2, be stapled to the AA list.
 
 
 
You're really reaching here..  Has an arbitrator ever offered up a list that is a sliding scale?  I can't imagine that would ever happen due to the cost of administering that ruling.  The costs to the company would be enormous.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So after one year goes by, TWA could NOT meet that requirement as set forth in the arbitration decision by exiting BK and showing a profit. Thus they would get the staple job (option 2) under the arbitration.
 
 
How does TWA fit into this again?  They had no cash left and their costs spiked when they came over to green book.
 
 
 
 
Would you argue that they should get straight DOH anyway, even though they did NOT meet the conditions of the arbitration that would allow them to have option 1? I mean if the arbitration decision had a specific condition that must be met in order to be implemented, but it wasn't met, do you think the APA would just give it to them anyway just to be nice? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this...
 
Not by a long shot.  I'll reserve further comment until you can produce an arbitration that has any type of sunshine/sunset methodology.  If I'm correct, you'll want to say, "hey, we're making money so just give us DOH?"

 

 
It's all good AA... I thought for quite a while before I posted my last post. (This has been re-hashed on here for years) Of course it was a fictitious scenario regarding TWA and you wanna try to say that's not how the TWA deal went down? Well I said said that from the beginning. It was just to show that when an arbitration is awarded with conditions that MUST be met for it to take effect, and they are not met, then it isn't what happens. The Nic was awarded in an arbitration and would have had to be implemented provided certain conditions were met... Those conditions were never met. So it cannot be implemented as per the arbitrator Nicolau himself... No matter, the law will prevail... No more posts from me about this since you couldn't answer the hypothetical question in which we all know the answer... The (Nic) "award" can't become effective when the conditions that are laid out by the arbitrator himself that he says MUST happen for the award to become binding never happen. The conditions set my Nicolau himself were never realized... I think he woud agree...

 

[A320 Driver]

What year?
 
2014?

My guess would be the three lists that existed on December 9, 2013. But it's just a guess. I'm sure you guys will try to use the NIC and USAPA will want the list after the next bid and who knows what the APA has in mind. The whole SLI will probably be a spectator sport for most of us anyway.

 

[AAviator]

 
It's all good AA... I thought for quite a while before I posted my last post. (This has been re-hashed on here for years) Of course it was a fictitious scenario regarding TWA and you wanna try to say that's not how the TWA deal went down? Well I said said that from the beginning. It was just to show that when an arbitration is awarded with conditions that MUST be met for it to take effect, and they are not met, then it isn't what happens. The Nic was awarded in an arbitration and would have had to be implemented provided certain conditions were met... Those conditions were never met. So it cannot be implemented as per the arbitrator Nicolau himself... No matter, the law will prevail... No more posts from me about this since you couldn't answer the hypothetical question in which we all know the answer... The (Nic) "award" can't become effective when the conditions that are laid out by the arbitrator himself that he says MUST happen for the award to become binding never happen. The conditions set my Nicolau himself were never realized... I think he woud agree...

Fair enough..
Direct me to the conditions..
 
What page?
 
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/attachments/article/75/Nicolau%20Arbitration%20Award.pdf
 
Maybe these are fabricated conditions that needed verified or whatever buzz word EastUS1 is using today?

 

[AAviator]

Sounds like APAs opener maybe???

Don't know.  No idea where APA will open.

 

[EastUS1]

AAviator...just curious and have to ask.

Any rumors regarding how APA does intend to fulfill its DFR obligations to LCC pilots sans-USAPA? Do you see them APA acting as the umbrella organization overseeing and funding the separate and autonomous merger committees? I would assume this would be the easiest way to comply with its obligation to use MB procedures, avoid any DFR liability for APA and keep management from any interference by allowing them to also escape liability regarding the Nic.

 
Well AAviator's "The TWA deal was an asset purchase. " might afford "you'se" some small glimpse into the heart of tender mercy, morality and gentle justice to reasonably expect from your newfound, best-friends-forever. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

Note to self..  when someone is on your ignore list, he's earned that spot.

"You allowed EastUS1.."
"...whatever buzz word EastUS1 is using today?"
 
So stop obsessing and ignore already! 🙂 Make yourself more comfortable. It's hardly my fault you've the target speed and mental agility of at best, a sea sponge. 😉

 

[luvthe9]

If you don't want the wide body jobs, then why date of hire?

Because it's fair,again if one of west friends "84" hire can hold a 777 slot he should get it if you guys don't want it. I know you are clueless with this since you support the west however every AA jumpseater and my AA friends want some sort of wide body protection and seat protection and they should, we have no problem with that, why do you want to screw over you fellow AA pilots and give away their wide body jobs, I don't get that part.

 

[luvthe9]

I'll respond, but let me ask you a question first.  Why did USAPA sue APA?

Because you and the company think you should make the seniority list plain and simple, here's an idea let USAPA make the list, I'm sure all your AA boys and girls would have no problem with that, right?

 

[luvthe9]

luvthe9, I'm going to combine a couple of your statements.
 
In your first one, you state you want DOH.  Well, that means Chip Munn would be a solid block holing 777 Captain in a couple of bases.
 
In your next statement, you gripe about what was brought to the merger by AWA.  Did Chip Munn bring a 777 job to the table?  What job is he bringing?  Would DOH artificially thrust him into a higher earning seat?  Why should an AA pilot lose the seat because of that?
 .

. What don't you get, well yes I am senior to Munn, I would be in the top 260 or so on your list, One more time I think we should have a fence, most everyone I have talked to on both side agree, now pay attention we should not bump you out of your seats, C and R can be done, you brought a lot of big planes to this merge, their yours. I can't make it any clearer for you.

 

[electricjet98]

I'll respond, but let me ask you a question first.  Why did USAPA sue APA?

Sorry for the delay...Sunday household "chores" and all!

In a nutshell, from USAPA's filing and fit for "public" consumption, they are attempting to force parties into:

proceeding with USAPA to an arbitration
hearing in accordance with Section 13(a) of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs until
completion of the requirements thereof for resolution of the seniority list integration
dispute among the pilots of American Airlines and US Airways;

In reality, I believe they are more concerned with NOT ALLOWING west pilots any voice at the arbitration. I guess if APA continues to force the issue they will simply be forcing USAPA into a further downward spiral of total dysfunction. APA's probable opinion: "WINNING"!

 

[electricjet98]

Because you and the company think you should make the seniority list plain and simple, here's an idea let USAPA make the list, I'm sure all your AA boys and girls would have no problem with that, right?

What happened to your "Majority Rules" mantra?