2015 Pilot Discussion.

[luvthe9]

america west pilots seek to take positions 17 yrs ahead of their hire date, west pilots take jobs of Australian pilots, west pilots agree to bottom of barrel contracts for decades. west pilots have no pension, cheer when others lose theirs. A sad legacy.
What are your plans for furloughed Legacy American pilots? It is a closely guarded plan, for it will awaken the LAA pilots to the threat to their careers PHX pilots pose.

That's what scabs do!

 

[CactusPilot1]

america west pilots seek to take positions 17 yrs ahead of their hire date, west pilots take jobs of Australian pilots, west pilots agree to bottom of barrel contracts for decades. west pilots have no pension, cheer when others lose theirs. A sad legacy.
What are your plans for furloughed Legacy American pilots? It is a closely guarded plan, for it will awaken the LAA pilots to the threat to their careers PHX pilots pose.

You need to get you facts right, Jack.

West pilots aren't taking positions, we went thorough a process called arbitration.

Facts from the arbitration include:


"At the time of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of
5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough.'
Their dates of hire (DOH) ranged from 4/20/66 to 6/19/00, with the
most senior furloughed pilot (Colello) having been hired in 1988. When
furloughed in 2003, Colello (3303) had 16.4 years of service"

"As of the merger, it America West) had 1894 pilots on its
list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time on
furlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-
90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to
the list."

So, your furloughed pilot, Usapian Collelo with 16.4 years of service appears to be junior with your airline. He's on the Uscaba merger committee (what a suprise) to justify replacing an actively flying pilot who brought a job to the table in 2005. Usapian Collelo wants to take that job from a pilot who's company was hiring at the time, seems convenient. You bring a job, you keep it and despite your arguments at the time, they were rejected by the panel as they should have been.

The West Merger Comittee has spelled it out. Have you not been paying attention, Clax?

THE NICOLAU AWARD

"Many of you rightfully are bit fuzzy as to the status of the Nicolau Award after the latest iteration of court battles and arbitrations, and have asked us to explain how the Nicolau Award might become part of the new American Airlines seniority list.


During the SLI process ahead of us, each of the three merger committees (AA, East, and West) will likely present different ideas of how the final American Airlines seniority list should be integrated. Ultimately, it will be up to a panel of three highly-seasoned arbitrators to determine which portion(s) (if any) of each proposal meet the fair and equitable standard as they attempt to craft their award. An important part of this process will be determining the relative ordering of East and West pilots into that final American Airlines seniority list, and of course, it is for that reason APA established (and American supported) separate East and West committees for this process. Both the East and West committees will present their views as to the relative ordering of the East and West pilots, and it will be up to the arbitration panel to decide how that should be done.

Our position is simple. The pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of America West and US Airways pilots were set and measured in May 2005 when the merger of those two airlines was announced. From that point on, we began working for a new airline (LCC) with new career expectations, and agreed to equitably divide the benefits of our new airline according to a well-recognized, fair and equitable seniority integration process. Both pilot groups participated in the process in good faith and without a single objection to any part of the process itself. The process ended with a result, and that result remains the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever reached by mutual East/West agreement, and it is the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever accepted by US Airways. That seniority list, the Nicolau Award, can therefore be the ONLY fair and equitable basis for integrating US Airways pilots with American Airlines pilots. The fact that it was never implemented is of no moment; it reflected the balancing of pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of the two pilot groups then and it still does today.

On the other hand, the USAPA approach, in a nutshell, was best characterized by Arbitrator Javits during the Preliminary Arbitration when he asked this of USAPA Merger Committee Chairman Jess Pauley:

I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list?"

There's the plan. It appears you don't have one that's going to impress the arbitrators if history is an indication. Having no plan other than complaining about the Nicolau list is not a plan. It's a hole in which you will get buried.

 

[CactusPilot1]

That's what scabs do!

 
Uscaba has the blueprint. It's all in their decertified constitution.

 

[Phoenix]

You need to get you facts right, Jack.

West pilots aren't taking positions, we went thorough a process called arbitration.

Facts from the arbitration include:


"At the time of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of
5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough.'
Their dates of hire (DOH) ranged from 4/20/66 to 6/19/00, with the
most senior furloughed pilot (Colello) having been hired in 1988. When
furloughed in 2003, Colello (3303) had 16.4 years of service"

"As of the merger, it America West) had 1894 pilots on its
list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time on
furlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-
90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to
the list."

So, your furloughed pilot, Usapian Collelo with 16.4 years of service appears to be junior with your airline. He's on the Uscaba merger committee (what a suprise) to justify replacing an actively flying pilot who brought a job to the table in 2005. Usapian Collelo wants to take that job from a pilot who's company was hiring at the time, seems convenient. You bring a job, you keep it and despite your arguments at the time, they were rejected by the panel as they should have been.

The West Merger Comittee has spelled it out. Have you not been paying attention, Clax?

THE NICOLAU AWARD

"Many of you rightfully are bit fuzzy as to the status of the Nicolau Award after the latest iteration of court battles and arbitrations, and have asked us to explain how the Nicolau Award might become part of the new American Airlines seniority list.


During the SLI process ahead of us, each of the three merger committees (AA, East, and West) will likely present different ideas of how the final American Airlines seniority list should be integrated. Ultimately, it will be up to a panel of three highly-seasoned arbitrators to determine which portion(s) (if any) of each proposal meet the fair and equitable standard as they attempt to craft their award. An important part of this process will be determining the relative ordering of East and West pilots into that final American Airlines seniority list, and of course, it is for that reason APA established (and American supported) separate East and West committees for this process. Both the East and West committees will present their views as to the relative ordering of the East and West pilots, and it will be up to the arbitration panel to decide how that should be done.

Our position is simple. The pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of America West and US Airways pilots were set and measured in May 2005 when the merger of those two airlines was announced. From that point on, we began working for a new airline (LCC) with new career expectations, and agreed to equitably divide the benefits of our new airline according to a well-recognized, fair and equitable seniority integration process. Both pilot groups participated in the process in good faith and without a single objection to any part of the process itself. The process ended with a result, and that result remains the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever reached by mutual East/West agreement, and it is the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever accepted by US Airways. That seniority list, the Nicolau Award, can therefore be the ONLY fair and equitable basis for integrating US Airways pilots with American Airlines pilots. The fact that it was never implemented is of no moment; it reflected the balancing of pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of the two pilot groups then and it still does today.

On the other hand, the USAPA approach, in a nutshell, was best characterized by Arbitrator Javits during the Preliminary Arbitration when he asked this of USAPA Merger Committee Chairman Jess Pauley:

I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list?"

There's the plan. It appears you don't have one that's going to impress the arbitrators if history is an indication. Having no plan other than complaining about the Nicolau list is not a plan. It's a hole in which you will get buried.

 
 
We had a contract.  We have a new contract.  We gave away some things.  We received some new things.  Its not complicated, unless you are wedded to implicit assumptions.   

 

[Claxon]

You need to get you facts right, Jack.
West pilots aren't taking positions, we went thorough a process called arbitration.
Facts from the arbitration include:
"At the time of the US Air/America West merger, US Airways had a grand total of
5098 pilots on its seniority list, 1691 of which (33%) were on furlough.'
Their dates of hire (DOH) ranged from 4/20/66 to 6/19/00, with the
most senior furloughed pilot (Colello) having been hired in 1988. When
furloughed in 2003, Colello (3303) had 16.4 years of service"
"As of the merger, it America West) had 1894 pilots on its
list. All, however, were active and less than 200 had spent time on
furlough and then for relatively short periods during the early and mid-
90s, at which point hiring resumed with 1131 additional pilots added to
the list."
So, your furloughed pilot, Usapian Collelo with 16.4 years of service appears to be junior with your airline. He's on the Uscaba merger committee (what a suprise) to justify replacing an actively flying pilot who brought a job to the table in 2005. Usapian Collelo wants to take that job from a pilot who's company was hiring at the time, seems convenient. You bring a job, you keep it and despite your arguments at the time, they were rejected by the panel as they should have been.
The West Merger Comittee has spelled it out. Have you not been paying attention, Clax?THE NICOLAU AWARD
"Many of you rightfully are bit fuzzy as to the status of the Nicolau Award after the latest iteration of court battles and arbitrations, and have asked us to explain how the Nicolau Award might become part of the new American Airlines seniority list.
During the SLI process ahead of us, each of the three merger committees (AA, East, and West) will likely present different ideas of how the final American Airlines seniority list should be integrated. Ultimately, it will be up to a panel of three highly-seasoned arbitrators to determine which portion(s) (if any) of each proposal meet the fair and equitable standard as they attempt to craft their award. An important part of this process will be determining the relative ordering of East and West pilots into that final American Airlines seniority list, and of course, it is for that reason APA established (and American supported) separate East and West committees for this process. Both the East and West committees will present their views as to the relative ordering of the East and West pilots, and it will be up to the arbitration panel to decide how that should be done.
Our position is simple. The pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of America West and US Airways pilots were set and measured in May 2005 when the merger of those two airlines was announced. From that point on, we began working for a new airline (LCC) with new career expectations, and agreed to equitably divide the benefits of our new airline according to a well-recognized, fair and equitable seniority integration process. Both pilot groups participated in the process in good faith and without a single objection to any part of the process itself. The process ended with a result, and that result remains the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever reached by mutual East/West agreement, and it is the ONLY combined East/West seniority list ever accepted by US Airways. That seniority list, the Nicolau Award, can therefore be the ONLY fair and equitable basis for integrating US Airways pilots with American Airlines pilots. The fact that it was never implemented is of no moment; it reflected the balancing of pre-merger stand-alone career expectations of the two pilot groups then and it still does today.
On the other hand, the USAPA approach, in a nutshell, was best characterized by Arbitrator Javits during the Preliminary Arbitration when he asked this of USAPA Merger Committee Chairman Jess Pauley:
I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list?"
There's the plan. It appears you don't have one that's going to impress the arbitrators if history is an indication. Having no plan other than complaining about the Nicolau list is not a plan. It's a hole in which you will get buried.

According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We won’t address his motivation for leaving.
As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.

ALPA’s lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summer’s ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didn’t.

 

[Claxon]

Another day passes, the west pilots will not reveal their position on furloughed Legacy American pilots. Take heed LAA pilots. The west merger committee will place you below all west pilots in their proposal.
Read their posts concerning east furloughed pilots. If you are furloughed, they intend to put you behind their PHX hires with months of service.

 

[Phoenix]

How come the Westies are no longer posting about seniority all over the C&R boards?  Did they find too many nAAtives were less than enthusiastic to Westie SLI perspectives on the NIC?   

 

[CactusPilot1]

Another day passes, the west pilots will not reveal their position on furloughed Legacy American pilots. Take heed LAA pilots. The west merger committee will place you below all west pilots in their proposal.
Read their posts concerning east furloughed pilots. If you are furloughed, they intend to put you behind their PHX hires with months of service.

Begging the AA pilots to come to your rescue with baseless accusations is not going top help you in front of the arbitration panel. The fact of the matter is you are scared of arbitration because it's a process you can't control.
 

 

 

[CactusPilot1]

How come the Westies are no longer posting about seniority all over the C&R boards?  Did they find too many nAAtives were less than enthusiastic to Westie SLI perspectives on the NIC?   

 
 
The Nic is not their problem, it's your problem.
 

 

[nevergiveup]

Begging the AA pilots to come to your rescue with baseless accusations is not going top help you in front of the arbitration panel. The fact of the matter is you are scared of arbitration because it's a process you can't control.
 
 

You have learned nothing. You had the windfall in you hands and gave it away?........Why???......How much is enough???

 

[EastCheats]

You have learned nothing. You had the windfall in you hands and gave it away?........Why???......How much is enough???

 
Windfall? For Easties.
 
West pilots were furloughed and East pilots recalled.
 
Yep, we've had enough. Now it's your turn an equally desirable windfall 😉
 

 

[Claxon]

How come the Westies are no longer posting about seniority all over the C&R boards?  Did they find too many nAAtives were less than enthusiastic to Westie SLI perspectives on the NIC?

The west group led by Mitchell Vasin, will soon find themselves in the LAA pilot crosshairs.
west pilot dilemma is extremely problematic. How do they insist on placing all furloughed east pilots below west pilots, yet insist they will have a different plan for Legacy AA?
They cannot.

 

[Claxon]

You have learned nothing. You had the windfall in you hands and gave it away?........Why???......How much is enough???

Their obstinate behavior and greed cost them the Nic. Forever


If you think were taking the above out of context, Google and read the entire response, prepared by West Merger Attorney. Case 1:07-cv-01309-EGS Document 1 Filed 07/24/2007 Freunds response for the West MEC is 125 pages, but the important pages are 3-6. They spell out exactly what our Merger attorney thinks about whether the company must accept the NIC. According to him, they dont.

There is no doubt at U-Turn that if the NIC Award is scrapped there will be a DFR lawsuit. In fact, U-Turn has long supported a DFR lawsuit if the NIC is gone. If for nothing else, we need to clear the air and exhaust all our legal options. USAPA has to be expecting a DFR as soon as theres a single contract dumping the NIC. Their expectations of winning are as high as ours. Unfortunately for us, the bar in winning a DFR is high. How could the Freund comments above help?

 

[EastUS1]

Are you lonely tonight? Do you need attention?

He probably has a life, unlike you 😉

 
1) A kind offer, but "you'se" just aren't my type princess.
 
2) No doubt. Just hawking those ties alone must be incredibly demanding.

 

[EastUS1]

 
Windfall? For Easties.
 
West pilots were furloughed and East pilots recalled.
 
Yep, we've had enough. Now it's your turn an equally desirable windfall 😉
 

 
Translation = "This is Sparta!....Waaah!" Nothing new to see here.