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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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Metroyet said:
There WAS no competition. Nobody wanted US Airways.You'd have to have another bidding party to "outbit" it. There was none.
 
Are you suggesting that an airline weeks away from liquidation funded it's own merger? AWA hasn't been in BK since the first gulf war in 1991. Your Point?
some simple googling could keep you from looking like such a fool
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/us-airways-dividend-miles-pre-2005-america-west-merger/435460-how-us-airways-america-west-merger-got-off-ground.html
 
end_of_alpa said:
Fine.  Almost all agree with this statement.
 
American LOST $10.3 billion over 12 years and filed BK ONCE.
 
US Airways LOST $3.4 billion over 12 years and filed BK twice.
 
Without the merger, US Airways would have liquidated.
 
All FACTS.
 
This brings us to ONE SIMPLE QUESTION:
 
Where was AWA going to get the money or ANY money to BUY any of the ASSETS of the purported LIQUIDATED US Airways when DELTA, SWA, UNITED and CONTINENTAL (not to mention JB, Spirit, etc.) had so much more cash to OUTBID ANY OFFER AWA was able to offer ABSENT MERGER?
 
This is an HONEST question.  One which Parker and Kirby continue to support to this day.  Pilots want to be lawyers and CEO'S they just don't want to assume the responsibility of the decisions that come with the territory.
 
Simple questions.  
 
1. Did or COULD AWA get enough cash from investors to OUTBID the competition?  
 
2. Additionally, is it POSSIBLE that AWA could have precluded their own BK in 2005 at the height of the oil price crisis?
 
(I don't expect honest answers....hence let the epitaphs fly.)
 
First, that is three questions, and none are simple because you are asking for a prediction of events that did not happen. 
 
Second, you list the primary bidders of this fictitious liquidation sale as DAL, UAL, CAL and SWA.  If I recall, DAL was not in great shape in late 2004 prior to the NWA merger, Parker even made a run at them post AWA/US acquisition. While UAL wasn't there either, I guess CAL and SWA would have been players for the DCA, PHL and LGA assets.
 
Third, the money would have come from many of the same investors that financed the acquisition.  The biggest being America West Holding Corporation, Airbus, Mesa Air group and Air Wisconsin.
 
Fourth, If DAL, UAL, CAL, SWA, NWA, Jetblue and Spirit had soooooo much more cash, why did none of them acquire Airways or even attempt to make a better deal than what AWA ended up doing.  Lakefield himself told you idiots it was "the best deal we are going to get, and it is much better than we hoped for."
 
Fifth, it is totally plausible...(i.e. not "possible") that a stand alone AWA precluded a bankruptcy filing in 2005, however, you have to assume a stand alone operation, and in the context of seniority integration it would not mean squat because there would be only pilots employed at a still operating in bankruptcy AWA and those formerly employed by the liquidated USAirways. 
 
Last, who cares?  I mean really.  Bottom line, AWA bought Airways, we merged seniority, you got a better deal than you deserved, then tried to make it a complete windfall by stealing jobs, and it is all getting corrected now.
 
There...honest answere.
 
I read it fine AW didn't have enough cash to buy a belloader much less an airline. Lakefield put the investors together your  acquired fantasy is just that fantasy
 
traderjake said:
 
From the company's filing the DOJ case in 2013........."The harsh reality is that over the last twelve years American lost $10.3 billion and US Airways lost $3.4 billion. US Airways filed for bankruptcy twice during that period and without the merger with America West Airlines would have liquidated." USAirways response in DOJ Doc 79 page 4.
 
Some can't handle the truth.
 
cltrat said:
I read it fine AW didn't have enough cash to buy a belloader much less an airline. Lakefield put the investors together your  acquired fantasy is just that fantasy
America West Airlines Inc. 10-Q

Our high level of fixed obligations limits our ability to fund general corporate requirements and obtain additional financing, limits our flexibility in responding to competitive developments and increases our vulnerability to adverse economic and industry conditions.

We have a significant amount of fixed obligations, including debt, aircraft leases and financings, aircraft purchase commitments, leases of airport and other facilities and other cash obligations. As of June 30, 2005, we had approximately $704.0 million of outstanding debt, of which $181.9 million was secured. In addition, we had $11.2 million of payments to satisfy capital lease obligations and $3.1 billion of operating lease obligations through lease expiration dates incurred primarily in connection with off-balance sheet aircraft financings. See Liquidity and Capital Resources Off Balance Sheet Arrangements. We also have guaranteed costs associated with our regional alliance with Mesa and commitments to purchase aircraft from Airbus. As a result of the substantial fixed costs associated with these obligations:


A decrease in revenues results in a disproportionately greater percentage decrease in earnings.



We may not have sufficient liquidity to fund all of these fixed costs if our revenues decline or costs increase.



We may have to use our working capital to fund these fixed costs instead of funding general corporate requirements, including capital expenditures.



We may not have sufficient liquidity to respond to competitive developments and adverse economic conditions.

Our obligations also impair our ability to obtain additional financing, if needed, and our flexibility in the conduct of our business. Our existing indebtedness is secured by substantially all of our assets, leaving us with limited collateral for additional financing. Moreover, the terms of the government guaranteed loan restrict our ability to incur additional indebtedness or issue equity unless we use the proceeds of those transactions to repay the loan, require prepayment if our employee compensation costs exceed a certain threshold, require us to maintain a minimum cash balance of $100 million, and restrict our ability to take certain other actions, including mergers and acquisitions, investments and asset sales.

Our ability to pay the fixed costs associated with our contractual obligations depends on our operating performance and cash flow, which in turn depend on general economic and political conditions. A failure to pay our fixed costs or breach of the contractual obligations could result in a variety of adverse consequences, including the acceleration of our indebtedness, the withholding of credit card proceeds by the credit card servicers and the exercise of remedies by our creditors and lessors. In such a situation, it is unlikely that we would be able to fulfill our obligations under or repay the accelerated indebtedness, make required lease payments or otherwise cover our fixed costs.
 
US Airways Group
Rank: 424 (Previous rank: 295)
Get quote: LCC



CEO: William Douglas Parker
Address: 111 W. Rio Salado Pkwy., Tempe, AZ 85281
Phone: 480-693-0800
Website: http://www.usairways.com



$ millions

% change from 2004

Revenues

5,077.0

N.A.

Profits

-537.0

N.A.

Assets

6,964.0



Stockholders' Equity

420.0



Market Value 3/17/2006

2,908.5



Profits as % of

Revenues
-10.6
Assets
-7.7
Stockholders' equity
-127.9
Earnings per share

2005 $
-17.06
% change from 2004
N.A.
1995-2005 annual growth rate %
N.A.
Total return to Investors

%

2005

N.A.

1995-2005 annual rate

N.A.

Industry: Airlines

Rank

Company

500 rank

Revenues ($ millions)

1

AMR

105

20,712.0

2

UAL

124

17,379.0

3

Delta Air Lines

135

16,191.0

4

Northwest Airlines

182

12,286.0

5

Continental Airlines

207

11,208.0

6

Southwest Airlines

300

7,584.0

7

US Airways Group

424

5,077.0

8

Alaska Air Group

621

2,975.3

9

SkyWest

818

1,964.0

10

Jetblue Airways

896

1,701.3

11

ExpressJet Holdings

942

1,562.8

12

Airtran Holdings

989

1,450.5

From the April 17th, 2006 issue
Footnote:
Acquired America West Holdings (2004 rank: 678), Sept. 27, 2005. For accounting purposes, however, the company is treating America West as the acquirer.
 
Metroyet said:
"In the End, Only America West wanted Both"
 
Yes. How foolish of me to suggest only America West wanted US Air and it's honorable, honest and forthright "employees". 
 
ps. maybe you should read what you google.
What comes to mind first is the strange odyssey of Earl P. Thurston, the America West vice president who decided to drop down to being a pilot again.

Thurston and two other America West pilots, Robert J. Russell and Carl Wobser, were indicted in 1987 for flying 7,000 pounds of marijuana from Colombia.

They were caught when forced to land a subsequent flight from Chandler in their own DC-6 on Aruba because of low fuel. When officials searched the airplane, they discovered the three were carrying not only weapons but $47,000 in cash. The police were summoned.


Testimony in the case showed the three pilots were paid $1 million for the job. They were sentenced by Judge Paul Rosenblatt on November 11, 1989, to serve two years in federal prison after pleading guilty to conspiracy to import a controlled substance.

There was also the mysterious underreporting of America West passengers at Sky Harbor International Airport which resulted in the other airlines paying $900,000 extra in operational expenses.

Under investigation, it was learned that America West underreported its passengers from 1984 to 1989. The airline had handled nineteen million passengers and only reported fifteen million.

America West repaid the money, claiming as an excuse that the rule about declaring passengers was confusing.

This was discounted by Neilson "Dutch" Bertholf, the aviation director at Sky Harbor.

"We think the interpretation in the normal reporting process is one of long standing and not difficult to understand," he said.

An official from a rival airline was less charitable.
"It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out they were playing games," he said.

The recent expansion to Japan is an example of Beauvais' high-stakes gamesmanship.
 
traderjake said:
The point is that without the merger the overwhelming probability was liquidation and that's why Nicolau gave us no credit for longevity.
The point ALSO is that without the merger the overwhelming probability was that AWA would have been in BK and that AWA would have been in an even WORST position to get exit financing and in any case Parker (whom I have to laugh at pilots because they don't want to believe ANYTHING management says) said the BEST that could of happened was that AWA would look something like frontier is now.

No matter HOW you bake it George Nicolaus financial analysis has overwhelming been questioned by other merger opinions since. Take what you want, this will be an argument between all of us for the remainder of our careers and American Airlines will prosper as a result.
 
John Scherff learned his chief pilot disclosures of highly sensitive personal data from the " best"
Seems to be a recurring issue......
Your thoughts Metroyet?
 
EndClaxRat:

Airways could not help itself out of bankruptcy and was in no position to acquire an airline.

The transaction was put together by Parker who earned the trust of investors to pull the deal off.

If you are suggesting that US Airways acquired America West Holdings, hired Parker and moved its HQ to Tempe, you must be living in a state where smoking pot is legal.


US Airways and America West closed a merger transaction on September 27 that pulled US Airways out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy and created an AWAmanaged nationwide carrier described as the "first fullservice, lowcost, lowfare airline".
The deal was notable for its speedy completion, for raising a staggering $1.7bn in new equity investment and partner support and for its initial unenthusiastic reception by Wall Street analysts. How did the airlines manage to persuade savvy investors to part with their money, given the difficult industry environment and dismal history of large airline mergers in the US? How will they meet the challenge of labour integration? Is the new US Airways a likely longterm survivor? Under the "reverse merger" type transaction, which took only four months to complete since it was announced on May 19, America West Holdings (the acquirer) became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group and will give up its name. The reorganised company began trading on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) on September 27 under the symbol "LCC".
 
Claxon said:
Nice try west pilots. Sorry the facts continue to fly in your face.
Idiot


US Air files Chapter 11
Talks with labor unions for $800 million in concessions go nowhere.
September 13, 2004: 9:14 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - US Airways Group filed for bankruptcy protection Sunday for the second time in two years.
The Chapter 11 filing in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Alexandria, Va., came after the airline was unable to obtain $800 million in annual cost cuts from its workers' unions. The airline had warned during talks the concessions were needed to avoid the bankruptcy filing.
"Customers should not notice any changes to flight operations or customer service because of this filing," the airline said in a statement on its Web site. "All bookings will be honored and there are no changes to our ticketing policies."
A spokesman for US Air said Monday that the airline was operating as scheduled before the filing.
Bruce Lakefield, US Airways' president and chief executive, said in a statement released Sunday that failure to obtain concessions heightened the need for the company, the seventh largest airline, to conserve its cash and proceed with its plans to overhaul the business and become a low cost carrier.
US Airways said it needed to cut costs by $1.5 billion in order to make its business to operate more like its discount rivals. The centerpiece of the cost-cutting blueprint, which it had hoped to get voluntarily, was $800 million in concessions from labor unions.
But the airline failed to get another penny from pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and other unions, who yielded nearly $2 billion to help the company out of its first bankruptcy.
"We have made the difficult but necessary decision to complete this process with the help of the court," Lakefield said. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding gives a company protection from its creditors while it reorganizes its business operations under court supervision.
The airline said its existing marketing and vendor relationships will continue. US Air said it received court permission to continue its dividend miles program.
The filing comes one day after the third anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 hijack attacks, which accelerated a cyclical softening of business into the industry's worst-ever financial crisis.
But US Air had been one of the most troubled of the major airlines even before the Sept. 11 terrorist attack. Its plans to be purchased by United Airlines parent UAL Corp. had been blocked by federal antitrust regulators earlier that year. That had left the airline with a difficult challenge to reshape itself and cut costs even before the attacks.
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The attack hit the airline harder than perhaps any other. Its hub at Reagan National Airport in Washington D.C. stayed shut longer than any other airport. Concerns about flying plus security delays at the airport once it re-opened hit its shuttle service, severely limiting its most profitable business carrying passengers between Washington, New York and Boston.
The airline has also faced perhaps the most significant competition from low-fare carriers. Earlier this year Southwest Airlines moved into its hub in Philadelphia, and it has already been operating at Baltimore Washington International, near its Washington hub. Upstart Independence Air started operations at Dulles International Airport near Washington earlier this summer as well.
That competition coupled with high fuel prices caused losses to continue longer than the airline had previously hoped. But some analysts also argue the airline did not do enough to cut labor costs during its previous trip to bankruptcy court to let it compete in a new low-fare environment.

"We're at the point now where major restructuring, major reforms have to be made," Ray Neidl, airline analyst with Blaylock & Partners, said. "Certain airlines are going to have to disappear. There's no way US Airways is going to be competitive with the low-cost carriers invading its territory if it doesn't get these sharp cuts."
The airline filed for bankruptcy protection in August 2002. It was able to emerge from bankruptcy protection in March 2003, using $900 million in a federal loan guarantee program set up after the Sept. 11 attack, as well as a $240 million equity investment from the Retirement Systems of Alabama Holdings.
But finding the financing it will need to emerge from bankruptcy this time will be far more difficult, and some analysts have suggested there is a good chance this trip to bankruptcy court could lead to liquidation rather than reorganization.
"Basically time is running out," said Phil Baggaley, airline analyst at credit rating agency Standard & Poor's. "They have a whole series of deadlines coming up in September. The problem is would US Airways be able to attract financing to emerge from bankruptcy again, even with a new round of labor concessions?"
Even airline Chairman David Bronner, CEO of the Alabama retirement system, was quoted in August as saying the airline would likely face liquidation if it was forced into bankruptcy.
But even those who suggest the airline could be forced out of business by this trip to bankruptcy suggest it could be months before it might cease operations. And some analysts believe even in its weakened state US Air may be able to dodge a shutdown.
"Liquidation is something that happens rarely in the airline industry," said industry economist David Swierenga, president of consulting group AeroEcon. "We've seen in the past, they can last for a long time even when they're losing money."
The Arlington, Va., based airline employs 28,000 people. "Employees will be paid and their benefits will continue," the airline said in its statement.
The Retirement Systems of Alabama pension fund, which agreed to finance US Airways' prior bankruptcy restructuring, holds the biggest stake in the airline at about 36 percent.
The Air Line Pilots Association holds a 19 percent stake. The U.S. government, which granted a $900 million loan guarantee as a crucial part of the airline's first restructuring, holds 10 percent. General Electric Co. (GE: Research, Estimates), a supplier of regional jet financing, owns 5 percent.
 
Claxon, how about making yourself useful for the next 8 hours and search the forums for avatars that you feel are offensive.
 
nic4us said:
First, that is three questions, and none are simple because you are asking for a prediction of events that did not happen.
 
Bottom line, AWA bought Airways, we merged seniority, you got a better deal than you deserved,
 
"...because you are asking for a prediction of events that did not happen."...Seriously? "You'se" really just said that? Sigh...Consider that further, whenever once again overwhelmed with some insane need to foolishly bray about "career expectations". "Bottom line, AWA bought Airways, we merged seniority, you got a better deal than you deserved,.." Which is "logically" based on what besides momentary fantasies from some deranged "snapshot in time" revolving around "events that did not happen"? "You'se" bunch aint much for consistency, logic, or even actual thought of any kind. As always; thanks for the dependable laughs. 😉
 
Per "you got a better deal than you deserved"?...Most amusing indeed, especially coming from some pitiful flit that couldn't even find a supposed airline to so much as call him a "pilot" anywhere outside of AWA.
 
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