ALPA Thread 12/21 to 12/28 ALL ALPA/USAPA here

[EastUS]

It comes across as nervous laughter, kinda like Hillary.

Then I'd suggest the liberal use of swabs to remove the accumulated koolaide residue from your ears. It's clear that you not only consume it but fully immerse yourself in it. Regardless of this Alpo birthed Nic insanity..life will yet go on without your Nic dream ever coming true.

In any case: The Best of Christmas to you and yours with hopes for a fine new year

 

[JetMonkey]

Then I'd suggest the liberal use of swabs to remove the accumulated koolaide residue from your ears. It's clear that you not only consume it but fully immerse yourself in it. Regardless of this Alpo birthed Nic insanity..life will yet go on without your Nic dream ever coming true.

In any case: The Best of Christmas to you and yours with hopes for a fine new year

It won't go on with your DOH hallucination neither. Do you know what the craziest thing about this whole debacle is? The fact that we weren't the ones who created this mess, yet you people expect us to fix it. :blink:

 

[pilot]

It won't go on with your DOH hallucination neither. Do you know what the craziest thing about this whole debacle is? The fact that we weren't the ones who created this mess, yet you people expect us to fix it. :blink:

Don't expect a darn thing from you Monkey man. We are doing this on our own. I could care less what you do or don't do.

And I say that without malice.

Merry Christmas

 

[EastUS]

It won't go on with your DOH hallucination neither. Do you know what the craziest thing about this whole debacle is? The fact that we weren't the ones who created this mess, yet you people expect us to fix it. :blink:

You're totally incorrect. Life WILL go on regardless of any "hallucinations"...It has for countless millions of years, and any of our "big" issues here won't effect that in the slightest. If you're fortunate enough to live enough years...you'll likely eventually "get" that. I'd actually define "hallucination" more properly as being some delusional state, within which one's posessed by an enormous narcisisstic fantasy that he's personally of such inestimable "value" that it's fully "ok" for him to dismiss the worth of others, far more experienced, and with many more years of proven service, solely for his own personal benefit. Now..THAT'S just plain crazy....period...take it to any shrink.

No one expects you to "fix" anything btw. If you had any such ability..it'd have been done by now. If you'll notice the general themes of the threads here...you'll see a lot of west inputs that offer nothing more than feeble attempts to dissuade the east from doing what we're doing...and again..solely for your own benefit. There's been no demonstrated perspective from the west other than "I want whatever I can possibly get...NOW!!" "If you guys won't give it to me..well..Waah!..you're just plain awful!" Most of you folks posting just don't "get it" regarding ANY notions of true unionism, fraternity, etc...and Alpo most certainly has no clue.

Your observation: "The fact that we weren't the ones who created this mess" is another breakthrough in posted western thought. I agree with you..and neither did east line pilots make this mess.

 

[luvn737s]

One thing that many would-be U-SAPs supporters may have missed in their zeal to get rid of ALPA is the likelihood that the company would pounce on this opportunity (a new, unproven, underfunded union with very little support outside it's core constituency) to ramrod ultra-low payrates (Kirby1 off the table replaced by Kirby2 which would resemble the Mesa pay and bennies) in order to provoke a strike. Without a sufficient war chest, it would be a slam-dunk to get whatever they want, and leave ALPA national to come back in a few years when the next amendable date rolls around and try to undo U-SAPs mistakes. I would expect this to be the pattern with all company-U-SAPs confrontations, as they take full advantage of a weak union. At the very least we should expect the company to desire a clean-sheet CBA from scratch, top-to-bottom, which puts a weak underfunded union at a decided disadvantage.

 

[luvn737s]

We are doing this on our own. I could care less what you do or don't do.

That sounds like the kind of thing you hear at the end of a CVR tape. Maybe enough folks will be able to wrest the controls from Capt. USAPA before it's too late.

 

[EastUS]

That sounds like the kind of thing you hear at the end of a CVR tape. Maybe enough folks will be able to wrest the controls from Capt. USAPA before it's too late.

"Too late" for what?..Alpo and Nic?...Your absurd notions that you're personally, and somehow magically worth far, far more than an east pilot?...Too late for what exactly? If you're sense of the dramatic tells you that anything's about to crash...that'd be your own BS about to impact.

Luvvy737s: "One thing that many would-be U-SAPs supporters may have missed in their zeal to get rid of ALPA is the likelihood that the company would pounce on this opportunity (a new, unproven, underfunded union with very little support outside it's core constituency) to ramrod ultra-low payrates (Kirby1 off the table replaced by Kirby2 which would resemble the Mesa pay and bennies) in order to provoke a strike."

That's among the most amazing BS I've yet seen, and has no connection to reality in any fashion. The "core constituency" would be the majority of the pilot group. Said people would by then have thrown off Alpo's yoke via full blown defiance and wholesale commitment. You cannot even begin to be seriously asserting that they'd instantly then be "easy marks" for management, nor that Alpo's ever achieved..well...really ANYTHING at the negotiating tables for..well...you tell me how long 😉 Do you think that USAPA people would put up with the crap you've just fantasized?...Amazingly perverse propoganda..even from you. I'll stick with: "If you'll notice the general themes of the threads here...you'll see a lot of west inputs that offer nothing more than feeble attempts to dissuade the east from doing what we're doing...and again..solely for your own benefit."

 

[nostradamus]

One thing that many would-be U-SAPs supporters may have missed in their zeal to get rid of ALPA is the likelihood that the company would pounce on this opportunity (a new, unproven, underfunded union with very little support outside it's core constituency) to ramrod ultra-low payrates (Kirby1 off the table replaced by Kirby2 which would resemble the Mesa pay and bennies) in order to provoke a strike. Without a sufficient war chest, it would be a slam-dunk to get whatever they want, and leave ALPA national to come back in a few years when the next amendable date rolls around and try to undo U-SAPs mistakes. I would expect this to be the pattern with all company-U-SAPs confrontations, as they take full advantage of a weak union. At the very least we should expect the company to desire a clean-sheet CBA from scratch, top-to-bottom, which puts a weak underfunded union at a decided disadvantage.

luvn737 quote August 2004


"If some pilots hadn't been willing to walk away from the whole thing rahter than accept progressively lower wages and benefits, probably long before you got started in aviation, the good jobs to which most pilots aspire would have never been. Those who scab, those who allow fear to dictate their choice to accept concessions and those who are willing to fly jets at sweat-shop rates are all guilty of diminishing the profession and making things more difficult for those that come behind them."

Luvn737 you speak with forked tongue.

Your America West pilots worked for bottom feeder and sweat-shop rates for twenty years. Your pilots scabbed. You allowed fear to diminish the profession and made things more difficult for the rest of us for twenty years. You hypocrisy sir is only exceeded by your ignorance of historical facts and your greed.

Defend the actions of your america west pilots the previous twenty years.

 

[700UW]

And US Pilots scabbed during the M&R strike in 1992.

 

[JetMonkey]

you'll see a lot of west inputs that offer nothing more than feeble attempts to dissuade the east from doing what we're doing...and again..solely for your own benefit."

And who's benefit will you bring with your minuscule attempt at a union? Certainly not mine or any other west pilot. There is absolutely not one improvement I would have with usapa...

1. Pay?............. doubtful, you guys are content with just parity instead of more with a joint contract.
2. Scheduling?.. nope.
3. QOL?............ Na
4. Seniority?..... Do I really have to explain that one?
5. Furlough protection?.... reference #4
6. Merger?........ being the smallest of the big 6, do you want to merge with a larger ALPA carrier and be represented by a different union? Not me!
7. Smaller Dues?.. maybe at first, then quickly increased probablly to more than 3x the amount we're paying now to subsidize the war fund will need for #6.

Your montage of words directed at us about self-serving and greed is a camouflage of your hypocrisy sir. You need to look no further than my avatar.

 

[luvn737s]

luvn737 quote August 2004


"If some pilots hadn't been willing to walk away from the whole thing rahter than accept progressively lower wages and benefits, probably long before you got started in aviation, the good jobs to which most pilots aspire would have never been. Those who scab, those who allow fear to dictate their choice to accept concessions and those who are willing to fly jets at sweat-shop rates are all guilty of diminishing the profession and making things more difficult for those that come behind them."

Luvn737 you speak with forked tongue.

Nosty-
Please give the entire subject of the thread from which you pulled my quote, or does full disclosure of the context and truth undermine your agenda? Nonetheless, U-SAPs reckless drive to build a union solely on the "we've got nothing left to lose" platform is indefensible.

But I'm willing to bet you'll try. Back to the archives basement for you!

 

[luvn737s]

Do you think that USAPA people would put up with the crap you've just fantasized

Well the fantasy that is U-SAPs will face the reality that they cannot finance any real extended confrontation when less than half the people they represent will be paying dues. The same reality that dawns on most 3-year olds - that you don't always get what you want just because you cry and throw a tantrum - will occur to the U-SAPs crowd. When you run out of money before you run out of rhetoric, you lose your relevance in the fight.

But there is a sentiment that more and more pilots are beginning to realize it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[b737fo]

The new guys will be hired professional negotiators..not Alpo Amateurfest Giveaway-of-the-Day "geniuses". Of course management will "delay,delay,delay". Since you realize that, and seem to have some grasp of the sorts in "management" that we're up against...how would you even wishfully imagine any results more immediately had Alpo played it's little Survivor "game" better out east? Let me think...two years plus and absolutely zero progress....other than dropping the Nic group-fragmentation bomb for us all to have fun with...yessir; no doubt that Alpo was quickly nearing the goal line and a big score was imminent :blink:

Kind of hard to have any progress after two years if one of the parties took their toys and went home. Before there is implication that ALPA national failed the last two years to secure a contract then let's remember that ALPA national didn't pull the East negotiators from the table. The same negotiating table that the East promised they would participate at when they signed the transition agreement. :blink:

Is that how a group of people who have a rich history of pride and professionalism hold true to their word?

 

[EastUS]

And who's benefit will you bring with your minuscule attempt at a union? Certainly not mine or any other west pilot. There is absolutely not one improvement I would have with usapa...

1. Pay?............. doubtful, you guys are content with just parity instead of more with a joint contract.
2. Scheduling?.. nope.
3. QOL?............ Na
4. Seniority?..... Do I really have to explain that one?
5. Furlough protection?.... reference #4
6. Merger?........ being the smallest of the big 6, do you want to merge with a larger ALPA carrier and be represented by a different union? Not me!
7. Smaller Dues?.. maybe at first, then quickly increased probablly to more than 3x the amount we're paying now to subsidize the war fund will need for #6.

Your montage of words directed at us about self-serving and greed is a camouflage of your hypocrisy sir. You need to look no further than my avatar.

A) I don't believe that you're even envisioning what any actual union, versus Alpo would be able to accomplish. Understandable given little precedent for such around here.

1) "content with just parity"?...That'd explain the eagerness on the east for an acceptance of Nic and an immediate JNC then...I see.
2) Where does that additional fantasy come from?
3) See 2) above.
4) You've evidently zero respect for nor any understanding of seniority...other than some inflated BS for yourself, so no: you don't "have to explain" anything there.
5) Well...I guess that we could just keep LOA93 then..and if any sizeable reductions in fleet occur = you lose. That isn't the idea though. This profession's wages and benefits have grossly deteriorated under Alpo's enlightened "leadership" and it's far past time to change that.
6) Makes perfect sense...especially in the wake of Nic. Perhaps all of us could then be readilly stapled to the bottom via Alpo's "relative" notions and unpredictable "processes"...

You're assuming a structure identical to Alpo's that requires subsidizing worthless drones at every level, countless "committees" filled with flight-pay-loss wunderkind, and making a few millionaires up top (all at dues payers' expense) within some "national" body...guess again. I won't go deeply into the huge secretarial staff that often makes more than line pilots/etc...Do the math over.

My "hypocrsiy" doesn't extend to wanting your, nor any west pilot's position or "seniority". I've no absurdly narcisistic fantasy that I'm "special", and worth more than another pilot who's flown more than me, and I've no thoughts of seeking out or maintaining reduced wage rates for you untill I "get mine"...enough said.

 

[EastUS]

Well the fantasy that is U-SAPs will face the reality that they cannot finance any real extended confrontation when less than half the people they represent will be paying dues. The same reality that dawns on most 3-year olds - that you don't always get what you want just because you cry and throw a tantrum - will occur to the U-SAPs crowd. When you run out of money before you run out of rhetoric, you lose your relevance in the fight.

But there is a sentiment that more and more pilots are beginning to realize it doesn't have to be that way.

What possible financial figures can you pull from your magic hat that support any portion of that delusional BS?

"But there is a sentiment that more and more pilots are beginning to realize it doesn't have to be that way." Existent within your own imagination only..much like "you won't even get 200 cards".."Go ahead and file, I dare you!"/etc...but...don't confuse yourself by observing any aspect of reality as it unfolds.....