ALPA Thread 12/21 to 12/28 ALL ALPA/USAPA here

[EastUS]

Kind of hard to have any progress after two years if one of the parties took their toys and went home. Before there is implication that ALPA national failed the last two years to secure a contract then let's remember that ALPA national didn't pull the East negotiators from the table. The same negotiating table that the East promised they would participate at when they signed the transition agreement. :blink:

Is that how a group of people who have a rich history of pride and professionalism hold true to their word?

Your initial ideas demonstrate that Alpo, it's various little MEC's, and overall "processes" and political games don't work worth spit. I agree. That has ZERO to do with USAPA thinking. As for "hold true to their word"?...Again = Alpo BS...not ours. Over the course of many years; I've yet to see any Alpo consortium that I'd trust to walk my dog, much less represent my Word at any level.

 

[prechilill]

Is that how a group of people who have a rich history of pride and professionalism hold true to their word?

Sarcasm aside, you bring up an interesting point. The easties do not like an arbitrated decision so they impulsively react. How will they react if the company prevails in the PIT arbitration? Will this behavior continue in the next arbitration or is it just a one-time event? So it is easy to question their ability to participate in a civil process, however even if their anti-labor and anti-union efforts are only confined to other labor groups like the America West pilots, how can the USAPA supporters actually feel law and order will prevail following a union vote? We see this played out many times in places like Somalia, Cambodia (and possibly Iraq): coups and illegitimacy breed lawlessness. If USAPA comes to power- this is just the beginning of untempered emotions ruling the day. Illegitimacy cannot be shed through flowery words, group hugs or closing a chapter in a history book- it always remains and will always be there.
We haven't seen much activity from the America West side yet because in a relative sense law and order still prevail due to our membership in a legitimate union which we agreed to be members of. That can change overnight.

 

[EastUS]

Sarcasm aside, you bring up an interesting point. The easties do not like an arbitrated decision so they impulsively react. How will they react if the company prevails in the PIT arbitration? Will this behavior continue in the next arbitration or is it just a one-time event? So it is easy to question their ability to participate in a civil process, however even if their anti-labor and anti-union efforts are only confined to other labor groups like the America West pilots, how can the USAPA supporters actually feel law and order will prevail following a union vote? We see this played out many times in places like Somalia, Cambodia (and possibly Iraq): coups and illegitimacy breed lawlessness. If USAPA comes to power- this is just the beginning of untempered emotions ruling the day. Illegitimacy cannot be shed through flowery words, group hugs or closing a chapter in a history book- it always remains and will always be there.
We haven't seen much activity from the America West side yet because in a relative sense law and order still prevail due to our membership in a legitimate union which we agreed to be members of. That can change overnight.

Sigh..You're right, and I fully see your "wisdom" = Rolling over and playing dead in the traditional Alpoid style's always the best answer. "Ve must maintain der law und order at ANY cost!!" Actually?..It was Stalin that best described your evident mindset when he observed that it was of great benefit to always maintain a vast population of "usefull idiots" 😉 Said idiots, while not major Party players, could be depended on to spew forth the party line, and keep others in check.
Hail Alpo 😉

Have any more fear-based, and wholesale BS to sell today? You wouldn't be a proper Alpo guy if you didn't 😉

prechilill dec 18th: "Yes, First Officer Nos has a lot of issues to deal with right now. This is the Christmas season, we must help those in need, those with mountains of dispair and battling depression in their lives- lost jobs, lost upgrades, financial troubles, personal misfortunes. We are seeing alot of this here on the boards with the likes of EastUS admitting he needs therapy of USAviation.com to help him navigate through each day of this mess. ("Aye squire, you have plenty of pithy thoughts good sire". We used to beat these people up in junior high school just for fun. Now we just laugh at them ) Of course, we have a guy named Eye that thinks third grade verbage is the key to successful debating (he's only a first officer too). Well, in the end it is up to us individually to have a Merry Christmas. After all, Santa is coming to town! Ho Ho Ho"

Gulp!!...I'd almost forgotten that post. Whew! I'll shut right up now...I wouldn't want Alpo goon squads of pimple-faced teenagers coming around to beat me up "just for fun" in the name of law and order and all things good and noble 😉 Ummm.do noble Alpoid ideals also apply to those who are: "only a first officer" within your own constituency?...or do they get beaten up "just for fun" as well? 😉

PS: A squire's still just a knight's apprentice, not a sire/king...no evident shortage of Alpoid's "usefull idiots" hereabouts. Your point is well taken as per : "Somalia, Cambodia (and possibly Iraq" I've zero doubt that Prater, with the brain trust that is Alpo behind him, and a few thousand "commit-mes" could/would solve those issues and achieve a fantastic contract for all overnight ....and likely even World Peace...if left unhindered by any aspect of reality.

 

[pilot]

EastUS:

I suggest you just ignore these fellows. They cannot, or choose not, to comprehend what is going on here. It is really just that simple. They cannot fathom what we have been through, assume it would never happen to them, and actually believe the Nic list is fair. It's not unlike the moral relativism that has overtaken this culture. In fact, it's quite similar. Anything is right if someone else says so. Regardless of long standing policy, precedent or, in our culture's case, morals and ethics.

What they think of us or don't think of us is immaterial. We will do what is needed to rid ourselves of this list and move on. Let them bluster and threaten and believe what they like. What is going to happen will happen one way or another.

 

[EastUS]

EastUS:

I suggest you just ignore these fellows. They cannot, or choose not, to comprehend what is going on here. It is really just that simple. They cannot fathom what we have been through, assume it would never happen to them, and actually believe the Nic list is fair. It's not unlike the moral relativism that has overtaken this culture. In fact, it's quite similar. Anything is right if someone else says so. Regardless of long standing policy, precedent or, in our culture's case, morals and ethics.

What they think of us or don't think of us is immaterial. We will do what is needed to rid ourselves of this list and move on. Let them bluster and threaten and believe what they like. What is going to happen will happen one way or another.

Agreed. It's just always been rather difficult for me to suffer fools without any response. I've also found it utterly incomprehensible that these people could actually "believe" what they indeed appear to......

"It's not unlike the moral relativism that has overtaken this culture." Evidently, and very sadly much the case here, and virtually impossible to actually relate to. A society or segment thereof without any values above those of personal interest is a rudderless ship....

 

[nycbusdriver]

And US Pilots scabbed during the M&R strike in 1992.

Absolutely wrong. The pilots were bound by federal law not to engage in a secondary (or sympathy) strike. The weak-kneed ALPA won't even strike to their own benefit, nor do an SOS over safety issues, so why should they illegally walk off the job just to keep the utility in the chips?

 

[nycbusdriver]

One thing that many would-be U-SAPs supporters may have missed in their zeal to get rid of ALPA is the likelihood that the company would pounce on this opportunity (a new, unproven, underfunded union with very little support outside it's core constituency) to ramrod ultra-low payrates (Kirby1 off the table replaced by Kirby2 which would resemble the Mesa pay and bennies) in order to provoke a strike. Without a sufficient war chest, it would be a slam-dunk to get whatever they want, and leave ALPA national to come back in a few years when the next amendable date rolls around and try to undo U-SAPs mistakes. I would expect this to be the pattern with all company-U-SAPs confrontations, as they take full advantage of a weak union. At the very least we should expect the company to desire a clean-sheet CBA from scratch, top-to-bottom, which puts a weak underfunded union at a decided disadvantage.

Your scenario is possible with the likely election of USAPA. It's a bit scary, to be sure. But I think the east pilots are going to go forward with it because ALPA has backed them into a corner, and the west pilots are not doing anything at all to alleviate the situation they find themselves in. The west pilots are digging in their heels, and I understand that. Really, I do. But the west pilots also need to fully realize the consequences of digging in those heels and decide if it's worth it. It's really up to the west pilots at this point. The east pilots have run out of any option except USAPA to attempt to protect what little they have. ALPA has made it perfectly clear that they are not going to life a finger to ameliorate the situation. That unfortunately leaves the west pilots in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

Absent an olive branch of sorts from the west, USAPA is likely to happen. After it does, just fully realize that the west played an integral part in the process. Don't for a minute think they didn't.

(This is NOT an invitation to rehash all the stuff that got us here. We all know the history. We all know each sides's story. It's all been played out here in these forum since May "ad infinitum et ad nauseam." This is simply a "where do we go from here" look into the future.)

 

[nycbusdriver]

AWA320 wrote on a close thread:
Completely untrue and I will be more than happy to send you a copy of the transcripts. There were no west windfalls only east. 517 of them that will haunt us for the next 5 yrs now!!!

BOO!

 

[AWA320]

EastUS:

I suggest you just ignore these fellows. They cannot, or choose not, to comprehend what is going on here. It is really just that simple. They cannot fathom what we have been through, assume it would never happen to them, and actually believe the Nic list is fair. It's not unlike the moral relativism that has overtaken this culture. In fact, it's quite similar. Anything is right if someone else says so. Regardless of long standing policy, precedent or, in our culture's case, morals and ethics.

What they think of us or don't think of us is immaterial. We will do what is needed to rid ourselves of this list and move on. Let them bluster and threaten and believe what they like. What is going to happen will happen one way or another.

What you have been through is of no concern here just like what happend to Pan Am, Braniff, Midway and many others is of no concern here! In other words, that's your problem and it's in the past further it has nothing to do with the here and now or with us in the west! No threats, bluster or otherwise just fact. Now if you want to remember history look back to CAL vs EAL because that will give you but a glimpse of where this is headed!! Nic is more than fair considering what you were attempting to pull off. Your anger and frustration is directed in the wrong area which is why you have failed time and time again. LOA 93 is a glowing example of that stupitity. You had an offer from the company that was better than loa 93 and chose to take the position you did which cost your pilots dearly. You have a history of making dumb ### decisions that are costly and then look to blame others for your actions! Learn to take some responsibility for the dumb shite you do!!!

 

[EastUS]

What you have been through is of no concern here just like what happend to Pan Am, Braniff, Midway and many others is of no concern here! In other words, that's your problem and it's in the past further it has nothing to do with the here and now or with us in the west! No threats, bluster or otherwise just fact. Now if you want to remember history look back to CAL vs EAL because that will give you but a glimpse of where this is headed!! Nic is more than fair considering what you were attempting to pull off. Your anger and frustration is directed in the wrong area which is why you have failed time and time again. LOA 93 is a glowing example of that stupitity. You had an offer from the company that was better than loa 93 and chose to take the position you did which cost your pilots dearly. You have a history of making dumb ### decisions that are costly and then look to blame others for your actions! Learn to take some responsibility for the dumb shite you do!!!

I was at EAL...and you've no clue of what you're speaking of. This isn't anything the least bit similar in nature.

"What you have been through is of no concern here" Your empathy for "fellow pilots", your "Brothers and Sisters" in Alpa does you great credit, and serves as a shining beacon for unionism everywhere. What you personally want for yourself isn't of huge concern either.

 

[prechilill]

I was at EAL...

Care to wax about your feelings regarding your fellow EAL/ Trump Shuttle buddies getting slotted into the USAir seniority list. Which side of the fence are sitting on with this??? Fair, or was it a dastardly "act of ALPOID lunacy". Or are YOU one of those guys that were slotted???

 

[EastUS]

Care to wax about your feelings regarding your fellow EAL/ Trump Shuttle buddies getting slotted into the USAir seniority list. Which side of the fence are sitting on with this??? Fair, or was it a dastardly "act of ALPOID lunacy". Or are YOU one of those guys that were slotted???

I wasn't amongst the shuttle folks. Though an EAL date of hire would've benefited me tremendously, I was absorbed into US otherwise, via PSA and I've always supported date of hire regardless...which was via PSA, not EAL in my case. Ambiguity could easilly have been completely removed by Alpo decades back via a national seniority list..which they were/are far too stupid to even consider...pretty much like their "long view" on RJ's/etc that've wreaked such devastation to industry compensation...and any halfwit could've seen that coming...a side issue for the present: Next question.

 

[prechilill]

I wasn't amongst the shuttle folks. Though an EAL date of hire would've benefited me tremendously, I was absorbed into US otherwise, via PSA and I've always supported date of hire...which was appropriate via PSA, not EAL in my case. Next question.

Let me get this straight. You left Eastern (way before the strike, obviously) to fly for PSA???

 

[EastUS]

Let me get this straight. You left Eastern (way before the strike, obviously) to fly for PSA???

Correct. I resigned from EAL, and thus felt no claim towards EAL seniority as things were structured. Carefull there..we might be on the edge of civil discourse here 😉

 

[JetMonkey]

A) I don't believe that you're even envisioning what any actual union, versus Alpo would be able to accomplish. Understandable given little precedent for such around here.

1) "content with just parity"?...That'd explain the eagerness on the east for an acceptance of Nic and an immediate JNC then...I see.
2) Where does that additional fantasy come from?
3) See 2) above.
4) You've evidently zero respect for nor any understanding of seniority...other than some inflated BS for yourself, so no: you don't "have to explain" anything there.
5) Well...I guess that we could just keep LOA93 then..and if any sizeable reductions in fleet occur = you lose. That isn't the idea though. This profession's wages and benefits have grossly deteriorated under Alpo's enlightened "leadership" and it's far past time to change that.
6) Makes perfect sense...especially in the wake of Nic. Perhaps all of us could then be readilly stapled to the bottom via Alpo's "relative" notions and unpredictable "processes"...

You're assuming a structure identical to Alpo's that requires subsidizing worthless drones at every level, countless "committees" filled with flight-pay-loss wunderkind, and making a few millionaires up top (all at dues payers' expense) within some "national" body...guess again. I won't go deeply into the huge secretarial staff that often makes more than line pilots/etc...Do the math over.

My "hypocrsiy" doesn't extend to wanting your, nor any west pilot's position or "seniority". I've no absurdly narcisistic fantasy that I'm "special", and worth more than another pilot who's flown more than me, and I've no thoughts of seeking out or maintaining reduced wage rates for you untill I "get mine"...enough said.

If allowing myself to be stapled behind furloughs, giving up my career expectations and becoming your furlough fodder is what it takes to show you respect, then I'll just continue being the snot-nosed teenage rebel you think I am.