Indeed. In this we've the fullest accord. The financial details may be disputed indefinately..and to no point regarding the labor group strife. That doesn't note that they're at all unworthy of academic note and discussion, but rather that they play no part in the current situation, and are poor sources for either side's propoganda efforts.
ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22
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Indeed. In this we've the fullest accord. The financial details may be disputed indefinately..and to no point regarding the labor group strife. That doesn't note that they're at all unworthy of academic note and discussion, but rather that they play no part in the current situation, and are poor sources for either side's propoganda efforts.
I'll just be glad when all the "It's all about me," chest beating, bull#### is over. Let usapa win, if that's what it takes to bring the self-centered, I'm entiltled to everything, folks back to reality. You guys have got to be reaching wayyyy out there! Just imagine the barganing power of a group which the company knows does not have the financial resources to survive a strike!
The real world thinks that you may be in for a rude awakening. Personally, I just don't care anymore. I'm way past the point of needing this company to survive.
Good luck to all!
PS, It's not the name of the union that makes a difference! Failure to take responsibility for one's actions, and placing the blame elsewhere, does not seem to be the answer for any specific group, even certain pilots!
The real world thinks that you may be in for a rude awakening. Personally, I just don't care anymore. I'm way past the point of needing this company to survive.
Good luck to all!
PS, It's not the name of the union that makes a difference! Failure to take responsibility for one's actions, and placing the blame elsewhere, does not seem to be the answer for any specific group, even certain pilots!
I'll address these in order:
1) "I'll just be glad when all the "It's all about me," chest beating, bull#### is over." No joke there...I've had more than enough of some of these westies to last me a lifetime.
2) "Let usapa win, if that's what it takes to bring the self-centered, I'm entiltled to everything, folks back to reality" It does seem that such is the case.
3) ". You guys have got to be reaching wayyyy out there! Just imagine the barganing power of a group which the company knows does not have the financial resources to survive a strike!" Unlike the west?..Most of us out here actually have lives outside of this airline, and/or have developed methods with which to survive evils like furloughs/cut off income/etc..so that hardly applies.
4) "The real world thinks that you may be in for a rude awakening." I've, most probably, spent far longer in "the real world" than you have, and your opinion's valued appropriately.
5) " I'm way past the point of needing this company to survive." Good..seriously..any/all are the fullest fools to base their entire existence on some airline/ANY corporate entity, nor certainly THIS one....the last portion deleted, and this substituted so's not to overly insult the west...."Doug's a genious!!"/etc..
So.... if Usapa gets in - and the west sues over it - which they will - both sides are now in limbo for at least 2-3 years with no pay increases or change to contracts. Plus, doesn't the new federal law regarding arbitrated awards make the Nicoula award mandated? I see nothing but problems with this.... and years and money wasted.
Other than "the west sues"...your suppostiions have no basis in projectable reality.
Even were they reasonable concerns? "Years of money wasted" is far preferable to "years of flying/life/work wasted"
We've seen plentifull "years" out east..the west is far more likely to find any such concept as formidable and daunting, when actually faced with it. "in limbo for at least 2-3 years" has no basis in reality, but; I'd even happily take that over seeing my comrades displaced by those with decades less service, no respect whatsoever, and sustained only by some "I'm special!!..It's ALL about ME!!" philosophy...PERIOD>This is my first post here but I've lurked a lot on here.Other than "the west sues"...your suppostiions have no basis in projectable reality.
Even were they reasonable concerns? "Years of money wasted" is far preferable to "years of flying/life/work wasted"
The east thinks that all the west pilots are low time rookies. We hired many pilots that had retired out of the military( even some Hanoi Hilton guests). One recent west retiree that I have known for 25 yrs and who checked me out as a Metroliner captain at our previous employer was told by Piedmont that at age 32 he was too old to be hired. Also, under your old contracts didn't USAirways pride themselves on how much they made and how little they worked, so in reality how many hard hours did you all fly in the old days 500-550 a year?--pretty much everybody out west has always flown 800 plus hard hours--so in reality a pilot hired at the old USAirways and the Old AWA on the same day ten years later the AWA guy would have more experience and flight time-plus also had probably upgraded...
AWAPPA
AMERICA WEST AIRLINES PILOTS PROTECTIVE ALLIANCE
"Protecting the interests of America West pilots"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is managing AWAPPA?
Currently, America West pilot volunteers are building AWAPPA's infrastructure. AWAPPA will be governed and led by an AWAPPA Board of Directors, as defined in the AWAPPA by-laws. AWAPPA Board of Director positions will always be occupied by America West pilots, and the staffing of those positions will be governed by a democratic process defined in the AWAPPA By-Laws. Expect to see more information in the coming weeks.
Should I join or pay dues to USAPA?
AWAPPA will have a recommendation on this important question only in the unlikely event that USAPA is successful in the NMB election. Regardless of that recommendation, we anticipate that it will take some time before AWAPPA is able to solicit membership applications and install a dues billing structure. We strongly recommend that you disregard USAPA's current efforts to collect membership applications and dues check-off forms.
Regardless of the recommendation for or against joining USAPA, we strongly recommend that America West pilots never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Do I need to cancel my ALPA dues check-off?
For the moment, there is no need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off. In the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, your current dues check-off agreement is "personal" to ALPA and should not transfer to a new bargaining agent. However, we would not be surprised if USAPA tries to claim that your ALPA dues check-off agreements transfer to it if it wins the election. Another so-called "independent union" that USAPA's lawyer also represented unsuccessfully attempted a similar circus stunt.
So although your current check-off authorization should not automatically transfer to USAPA if they succeed, we are going to be sure we are prepared to thwart any similar effort here if USAPA is successful and thereafter claims that the check off agreements transfer to it.
In short, you do not need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off now. Look for another communications from us on this subject next week.
Never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Can USAPA succeed at imposing date-of-hire on us?
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA's failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they're trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA's assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA's purported "right" to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
Ø The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
Ø The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let's review the facts about each of those points. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA's lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA's lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics' jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - The independent union USAPA's lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants - USAPA's lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants - USAPA's lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant's union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA's law firm. In other words, USAPA's lawyer's client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without the disadvantage of having 1800 of their constituents actively opposing the mere existence of the union from the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA's leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no "Plan B" if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is "unsupportive", and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the "majority" 2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, Lee Seham is leading a group of very emotional pilots straight off of a cliff, and USAPA's failure is almost certain. Your ALPA vote will prevent us (East and West) from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying in the first place.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
AWAPPA will likely not accept donations unless ALPA is actually removed as our bargaining agent. Prior to soliciting any pilot donations, AWAPPA will publish our financial policies so that any potential donor knows exactly how the war-chest will be managed. However, donation monies will be used almost exclusively to cover legal expenses. We have installed an inexpensive, yet comprehensive infrastructure that will incur minimal expense going forward.
For now, the only donation we seek is your time in reading our updates.
NEED MORE ANSWERS?
You may submit your questions to [email protected] and we will do our best to post your question with an answer to the page within a couple of days.
AMERICA WEST AIRLINES PILOTS PROTECTIVE ALLIANCE
"Protecting the interests of America West pilots"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is managing AWAPPA?
Currently, America West pilot volunteers are building AWAPPA's infrastructure. AWAPPA will be governed and led by an AWAPPA Board of Directors, as defined in the AWAPPA by-laws. AWAPPA Board of Director positions will always be occupied by America West pilots, and the staffing of those positions will be governed by a democratic process defined in the AWAPPA By-Laws. Expect to see more information in the coming weeks.
Should I join or pay dues to USAPA?
AWAPPA will have a recommendation on this important question only in the unlikely event that USAPA is successful in the NMB election. Regardless of that recommendation, we anticipate that it will take some time before AWAPPA is able to solicit membership applications and install a dues billing structure. We strongly recommend that you disregard USAPA's current efforts to collect membership applications and dues check-off forms.
Regardless of the recommendation for or against joining USAPA, we strongly recommend that America West pilots never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Do I need to cancel my ALPA dues check-off?
For the moment, there is no need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off. In the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, your current dues check-off agreement is "personal" to ALPA and should not transfer to a new bargaining agent. However, we would not be surprised if USAPA tries to claim that your ALPA dues check-off agreements transfer to it if it wins the election. Another so-called "independent union" that USAPA's lawyer also represented unsuccessfully attempted a similar circus stunt.
So although your current check-off authorization should not automatically transfer to USAPA if they succeed, we are going to be sure we are prepared to thwart any similar effort here if USAPA is successful and thereafter claims that the check off agreements transfer to it.
In short, you do not need to cancel your ALPA dues check-off now. Look for another communications from us on this subject next week.
Never complete a USAPA dues check-off form.
Can USAPA succeed at imposing date-of-hire on us?
AWAPPA is confident that USAPA's failure is a matter of when, not if. Unfortunately, USAPA will succeed in causing all of us to pay dearly for their failure in legal fees and prolonged substandard contracts. That is one of many reasons why the best defense against USAPA is a vote for ALPA in the election. You might then wonder why USAPA is so confident in its assertions about achieving a date-of-hire seniority list. The short answer to that question is: because they're trying to win an election!
The facts show that USAPA's assertions are nothing more than arrogance fueled by seriously flawed legal advice. USAPA's purported "right" to impose date of hire on us is based solely upon two things:
Ø The legal opinion of an attorney who has a track record of representing independent unions that regularly fail.
Ø The assumption that Doug Parker is willing to undo his acceptance of the Nicolau Award, or that USAPA will have the leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that Award.
Let's review the facts about each of those points. First, consider the fate of the following so-called independent unions, each of which USAPA's lawyer represented:
United Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - AMFA, a client of USAPA's lawyer, displaced the IAM a few years ago. It failed miserably; United promptly subcontracted a huge number of mechanics' jobs with the result that thousands of United mechanics are on furlough. An NMB representation election seeking to displace the independent union with the Teamsters is in the works. Knowledgeable airline industry observers have predicted with great confidence that the result will be either that the Teamsters will win or no union will win. In either case, the independent union is finished at United.
Northwest Airlines Aircraft Mechanics - The independent union USAPA's lawyer represented displaced the IAM and later went on strike. The strike was a complete failure. All of the strikers were permanently replaced, mostly by subcontractors, and the actual mechanic class and craft that the independent union would in theory represent (if it actually had the support of the scabs, which it does not) would be a fraction of the original workforce.
Northwest Airlines Flight Attendants - USAPA's lawyer represented an independent flight attendant union which won a representation election against the Teamsters. Apparently the flight attendants concluded that this so-called union was unable to represent their interests, because after only a few years of representation it was ousted in an NMB election and the AFA now represents the Northwest flight attendants.
Continental Flight Attendants - USAPA's lawyer (through his actual paying client, a company called the McCormack Advisory Group) helped form an independent union for flight attendants in an effort to displace the IAM as the Continental flight attendant's union. The IAM sued the independent union, its officers, and McCormack for misappropriating IAM membership lists (sound familiar?). McCormack consented to a judgment against it and paid damages to the IAM. The independent union and its officers ultimately settled with the IAM and those officers are now suing McCormack who is represented by USAPA's law firm. In other words, USAPA's lawyer's client in that case (McCormak) is being sued by the independent union that same lawyer helped start.
And those unions failed without the disadvantage of having 1800 of their constituents actively opposing the mere existence of the union from the day they were certified.
Aside from the flawed legal analysis on which USAPA bases its assertion that it will bargain away the Nicolau award, USAPA's leadership has publicly admitted that they do not know if Parker will negotiate a date-of-hire seniority list (or, for that matter, any list that deviates from the Nicolau award) with them (even if it is accompanied by a cheap contract), and that there is no "Plan B" if Parker refuses. In that regard, in the unlikely event that USAPA wins the NMB election, AWAPPA will put the Company on notice that it will seek monetary damages against both USAPA and the Company in the event that it agrees to any modification of the Nicolau award.
We also learned this week that USAPA believes that they can defy the laws of negotiating by achieving their demands with zero leverage (video of that discussion coming soon). After all, what leverage will USAPA really ever have when over a third of the group it represents is "unsupportive", and the unity of the other 2/3 is questionable? There is already obvious evidence of large fissures in the "majority" 2/3 of the group. It remains to be seen if USAPA will be able to retain a majority of support for more than a few days past a narrow election victory.
As you can see, Lee Seham is leading a group of very emotional pilots straight off of a cliff, and USAPA's failure is almost certain. Your ALPA vote will prevent us (East and West) from having to pay for that failure. AWAPPA will fight hard to minimize that price of failure, if your ALPA vote is not enough to prevent paying in the first place.
How do I donate to AWAPPA?
AWAPPA will likely not accept donations unless ALPA is actually removed as our bargaining agent. Prior to soliciting any pilot donations, AWAPPA will publish our financial policies so that any potential donor knows exactly how the war-chest will be managed. However, donation monies will be used almost exclusively to cover legal expenses. We have installed an inexpensive, yet comprehensive infrastructure that will incur minimal expense going forward.
For now, the only donation we seek is your time in reading our updates.
NEED MORE ANSWERS?
You may submit your questions to [email protected] and we will do our best to post your question with an answer to the page within a couple of days.
My fullest respect to those who served and suffered the Hanoi Hilton. I've known three such gentlemen well myself, and have no fantasy that I'd have even survived that unimaginable ordeal. for years ongoing. Such men I'd cheerfully give my seat to in an instant. I assume that you guys treated them as "new hires" though....becasue, after all...Isn't DOH appropriate within your special AWA family? Isn't that how you actually do things out there?
After that? = The rest of your post's pure BS, if you're in ANY way, foolishly attempting to argue for the "experience" level out west to be, in any way equal, much less superior...nice try though."We hired many pilots that had retired out of the military" That I can understand, in that, virtually no major airlines wanted men past a given age, and that provided huge obstacles against their finding better jobs. How many of those do you currently have seeking advancement through Nic? How many of those are even around now?
"As you can see, Lee Seham is leading a group of very emotional pilots straight off of a cliff, and USAPA's failure is almost certain."
"Waaay Cool then Dude"..Ummm..I'm confused just a bit then mighty "Spartan King" of the "Army" of Leonidas/AWA "Wolverines" = Why bother with all that then? Won't your "All out Warfare" simply take the situation well in hand?
Should you ever find yourself personally feeling "Waaay Bad" well then "Dude",...my now, long since dust-covered wager's always open for any "Great Champion of AWA's Righteous Position" to take up. You seem to be among the loudest braying "pilots" out west..I'd think that you'd be pleased to prove yourself the better man.
Head butting aside: Have fun/good luck with that. Know that the poor easterners are all of us trembling in our dens at the very thought of your approach.
sharktooth
Veteran
- Jan 27, 2006
- 1,846
- 0
Playing semantic tricks and ignoring the "elephant in the room" does not clarify the problem.
One just does not walk in and get a "loan" without collateral. If one thinks there was no collateral, then, why the difference in notes? Should not the notes have been the same? I might suggest that the difference in notes could be based on a perceived ability to pay, which can be considered collateral (but, hey, politics doesn't have to make sense and money could have been tossed with no consideration to paying it off, sigh).
What, exactly, did US vs AWA bring to their loans? What entity negotiated both pay-offs? I would also suggest the ATSB pay-off was negotiated before the merger was announced, that is, under Lakefield. It was a condition of the merger (summarized as clean up the balance sheet).
I will grant that earlier postings here alluded that AWA pilots were rookies, that is no how most of us feel. If hours logged were the determinant of any real qualification past ATP, then maybe we would have our seniority lists based on hours logged.
I think the "rookie" thing is better explained by saying that AWA, as a corporation, is a bit of a "rookie" in the industry, at least by comparison. I have no doubt that you flew with some ex-military POWs. I flew with one at (old) Piedmont also. But, to make my point clear, he was a POW in Germany in WWII. How many of those ever flew at AWA?
I find it very interesting that your friend was told he was too old for Piedmont at 32, yet got hired at AWA (which didn't start until 1983.) While Piedmont did have a cut-off of 32 for a long time (as did most of the major carriers,) the age restriction was abandoned in 1981. I was an F/E instructor at the time at PI, and most of my new hire students in 1981 and 1982 were ex-Braniff, ex-PanAm, and ex-TWA pilots who were downright ancient, i.e. mid-40s! So, your friend's contention that he was too old at Piedmont is, at best, a misperception on his part. He may have been turned down in 1980 for that reason, but there was still a window of opportunity between 1981 and his hiring at AWA to secure a job at Piedmont, and USAir as well (since their age restrictions also were abandoned in the same time frame.)
Good God. When do you sleep?I'll address these in order:
[blah blah blah]
Maybe you didn't know this, but every once in a while you are allowed to forbear responding to every single post that mentions USAPA or ALPA.
An excellent example of usapa's misguided, self-righteous, I've lived longer, flown longer, endured everything, therefore entitled to more, and know more than anyone else, position. This is a rather large assumption to make about someone you don't even know, especially at my age!
Just as with religion and politics, everyone has there own opinion. Thus, it's useless to argue. I must have had a weak moment and felt the necessity to state my view. Others seem to have a true inner need to defend their unreasonable stance. Could it be that they are actually just trying to convince their self-conscious that they are not really wrong, or at fault for their current circumstances?
But anyway, I'm going quietly back into lurk mode. Again, good luck to all.
2006 ALPA BOD meeting at the Aladdin in LAS cost $1,300,000.00, of which $300,000 was non-itemized)"
Housing allowance average for each of the four National Officers = $9,856/month/officer or
$118,275 each per year.
Can anyone confirm or prove false the following information floating out there? I am not picking sides here but this is the stuff that really pisses me off about power and how those in possession use it. It's our hard earned money! How about having that BOD meeting in DC in our ALPA building? Refund the leftover funds to the membership. I am currently insured with USAA and get a check most years when they are below budget. What a concept! I could really use that housing allowance. That alone is more compensation than our F/O pay at this airline. Rant over.
Housing allowance average for each of the four National Officers = $9,856/month/officer or
$118,275 each per year.
Can anyone confirm or prove false the following information floating out there? I am not picking sides here but this is the stuff that really pisses me off about power and how those in possession use it. It's our hard earned money! How about having that BOD meeting in DC in our ALPA building? Refund the leftover funds to the membership. I am currently insured with USAA and get a check most years when they are below budget. What a concept! I could really use that housing allowance. That alone is more compensation than our F/O pay at this airline. Rant over.
PayParity
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- Sep 15, 2007
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