ALPA/USAPA/Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/12-4/19

[700UW]

All the judge will do is send it back to Nic and have him add the midatlantic pilots into the list.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

All the judge will do is send it back to Nic and have him add the midatlantic pilots into the list.

Won't matter either way, but I'd bet your wrong on all accounts. Be a sad day when the AFL-CIO stock clerks start practicing law. Of course, this IS the airline business. Anything could happen!

 

[767jetz]

The "nic" is constitutionally unacceptable in the new union, our new reality. Let us work from there.

Boy you guys really seem to live in a one-sided world. Let us review:

Not accepting the BINDING arbitration that you agreed to in the first place was unacceptable to the West. They tried to say to you, "Look, you wanted this process to go to arbitration. You did not meet us anywhere near the middle ground during mediation when you had the chance. It was your way of the highway. The result is the Nicolau award. This our new reality. Let's work from there."

Look where that led. Do you really think everything is solved now that a new union represents your group? Pretty naive if you do. The same legal obstacles remain that existed before. It's pretty interesting that the East suddenly thinks they have their "do-over" and now they just want everyone to roll over submit to their will. It's almost comical to hear you guys say, "now that we've won, let's all be reasonable."

That has been your problem all along. Your definition of reasonable is: let's do it our way! The only thing that's changed is the name of your union. While that may be a symbolic victory and make you feel better in the short term, your reality and the consequences of your past decisions remain. All the denial in the world doesn't change that fact.

You may as well accept that there is a lot of work to be done and no one on the West is going to suddenly surrender to your will. Constantly saying over and over that everyone should just accept your version of "reality" and work from there is a waste of time and energy. The only thing that matters from here on in is who has the strongest legal case and the best lawyers. Your majority can not steamroll the legal system.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Just heard that two of your east pilots are ^%%$%ed. Ran off the runway in BDL after an unstabilized approach. Tons of witnesses, including a west crew. Enjoy your USAPA protection.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Just heard that two of your east pilots are ^%%$%ed. Ran off the runway in BDL after an unstabilized approach. Tons of witnesses, including a west crew. Enjoy your USAPA protection.

I wonder whom is correct, you or the witesses tha said "The plane was taxiing from the runway to the terminal when it veered off the runway and onto dirt." ? That quote is fom the TV statio that reported the event.

I guess we'll have to wait for an IMPARTIAL investigation, rather than jumping to childish conclusions.

 

[CactusFlyr]

I wonder whom is correct, you or the witesses tha said "The plane was taxiing from the runway to the terminal when it veered off the runway and onto dirt." ? That quote is fom the TV statio that reported the event.

I guess we'll have to wait for an IMPARTIAL investigation, rather than jumping to childish conclusions.

I have it from an eye witness in BDL. They are downplaying it, obviously. Enjoy.

 

[700UW]

Won't matter either way, but I'd bet your wrong on all accounts. Be a sad day when the AFL-CIO stock clerks start practicing law. Of course, this IS the airline business. Anything could happen!

Not practicing law, but haave been in several arbitration cases, contract negotiations and have been to all the IAM Leadership schools.

How many CBAs or grievance hearings including arbtitration cases have you been in?

Even was taught by one the arbiter who awarded the IAM 401k case.

Leadership I
The Leadership I School is the first of a four part education program designed for Local Lodge leadership. It is one week in duration and is a prerequisite to the other leadership schools.

The Leadership I School is designed to raise the awareness of the skills necessary to be a good local lodge officer member. To accomplish this objective the fundamentals of trade unionism and the basic laws and operations of the IAM are explored. They are:

IAM Structure and Services
Labor History
Government & Politics
Role of the Shop Steward
Introduction to Collective Bargaining
Union Administration

Leadership II
The Leadership II School is the second in a four part educational program designed for the local lodge leadership. To attend Leadership II, the member or officer must have attended Leadership I. Also, Leadership II is a prerequisite for Advanced Leadership.

Leadership II School is designed to further raise the awareness level of the skills necessary to be a good officer and/or member by introducing new subject matter. The topics covered for Leadership II are:

Introduction to Collective Bargaining
Issues and Lobbying Techniques
Advanced Steward Training
Technology and Change
Sexual Harassment

Advanced Leadership
The Advanced Leadership program is intended to give local and district lodge leadership a sense of teamwork, as they are divided into teams and work as such on various projects and exercises in most of the classes. They culminate the week by making a team presentation as part of the education process. The topics covered for Advanced Leadership are:

Economics for Union leaders
Workplace Communication
Technology and Change
Strategic Planning
Leadership Psychology
Using Media

Train-the-Trainer

Arbitration Program
Arbitration Program takes participants through each step of the arbitration process from the initial filing of a grievance, to investigating and preparing the case, and the actual presentation of the arbitration itself. At the beginning of the week participants are given a case overview to work on which will ultimately be arbitrated at a simulated hearing at week's end.

Each participant who attends the arbitration program is assigned to work on a team which prepares a case for arbitration. The teams cover material relating to how the grievance originated, and analyze the merits of the case and the documentation which was created while the case moved through the grievance procedure. They also receive training on using published resources to fully research and develop a theory of the case prior to arbitration.

Each team then prepares a position paper which it will use to guide its case through the hearing, including opening and closing statements. The procedures governing the conduct of the hearing are covered as is the union's duty of fair representation. Participants are also given guidelines to follow when preparing evidence and witnesses for the hearing.

The culmination of the week occurs when each team presents a case in a simulated arbitration hearing. Professional arbitrators conduct hearings just as they would those which involve disputes between an employer and the IAM. When the hearing is completed the arbitrators announce their awards, explain the reason behind their decisions; and offer a critique of the teams' performance and answer questions from the participants about the arbitration process.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Not practicing law, but haave been in several arbitration cases, contract negotiations and have been to all the IAM Leadership schools.

How many CBAs or grievance hearings including arbtitration cases have you been in?

Even was taught by one the arbiter who awarded the IAM 401k case.

WOW! A whole week! That's an impressive resume. Mr. Seham's isn't NEARLY as impressive.

I admit that I don't know it all, that's why I leave those sort of things to the experts.

 

[700UW]

You mean the same lawyer who represented Alitalia and El Al against unions, lost a major status quo case at ACA and led the AMTs at NW down the path to destruction.

Each class is a week of 10 to 12 hour days.

Seeham is not impressive, and I asked you YOUR experience, not Seeham(Stealhem) since he lost his AMFA cash cow he has latched on to USAPA.

 

[sharktooth]

Your majority can not steamroll the legal system.

Not a one wants to "steamroll" anything. In fact, you may wish to rephrase what you just said. Logically, it makes no sense.

For instance, how does one "steamroll" a legal system that has already been "steamrolled", and where does it stop?

Quite a few pilots said, in effect, that they will not sacrifice their first born on the alter of "binding arbitration" by utilizing a legal method of demanding accountability for arbitrators.

As Condi said, that is history. Time to move on. At least, this way, the west can preserve their "relative position" into perpetuity, making use of the great expansion opportunities they talk about, should they desire. Under the "nic", there was no such option for the east.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You mean the same lawyer who represented Alitalia and El Al against unions, lost a major status quo case at ACA and led the AMTs at NW down the path to destruction.

Each class is a week of 10 to 12 hour days.

Seeham is not impressive, and I asked you YOUR experience, not Seeham(Stealhem) since he lost his AMFA cash cow he has latched on to USAPA.

My PERSONAL experience is limited, that's why I rely on the opinions of EXPERTS.

Here's some background on Mr. Seham taken from his "background" page:

LEE R. A. SEHAM
Lee Seham, who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Amherst College, received his law degree from New York University School of Law (“NYUâ€￾), where he served on the NYU Law Review. Mr. Seham’s expertise as a labor and employment lawyer is widely recognized; he has litigated in numerous jurisdictions, including New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Florida, Texas, California, Tennessee, Washington, Minnesota and Georgia. His representation of clients in the airline and maritime industries has included collective bargaining, NLRB hearings, arbitration, DOT administrative hearings and advocacy before a Presidential Emergency Board. Mr. Seham is also a frequent lecturer at trade association meetings on such varied topics as the “Americans with Disabilities Actâ€￾, the “Family Medical and Leave Actâ€￾ and the “Fair Labor Standards Actâ€￾.

Let's go over this again. Why should we believe you or any other non-legally educated so called "expert" over Mr. Seham?

Oh, yea, that's right. A week of 10-12 hour days certainly prepares one to "opine" on legal matters more than a J.D. degree from NYU.

 

[700UW]

Like I stated Seeham represented airlines AGAINST unions, lost the major section 6 Status Quo case for amfa at ACA and deal a real bang up job for AMFA at NW, he can have all the education in the world, his actual losses and actions speaks wonders for itself.

His track record speaks for itself, he needs a new cash cow.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Like I stated Seeham represented airlines AGAINST unions, lost the major section 6 Status Quo case for amfa at ACA and deal a real bang up job for AMFA at NW, he can have all the education in the world, his actual losses and actions speaks wonders for itself.

His track record speaks for itself, he needs a new cash cow.

NOBODY wins them all, right ALPA?

Lawyers work for their clients. They ATTEMPT to prevail in their arguments by using opinion, precedent and common sense. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. All you can do is try. Can't blame him for doing his job.

 

[195PILOT]

Won't matter either way, but I'd bet your wrong on all accounts. Be a sad day when the AFL-CIO stock clerks start practicing law. Of course, this IS the airline business. Anything could happen!

ALPA submitting a list that put MDA pilots as furloughed is fraud. The Nic award will be show to be flawed, the MDA pilots will win and who will ALPA access for their incompetence? WHO CARES!

 

[PA18]

She was REPLACED as committee chairman by the MEC. The resignation came later. I wasn't there, just read the shenanigans. She is truly a professional and had always had the pilot's best welfare in mind.

OBG,

I'm glad you brought this up.

While 99 and 44/100 percent of both pilot groups are and will remain singularly focused on the seniority issue, I have to wonder how many of that 469 vote margin was influenced by the treacherous acts by the ALPA President, the Executive Committee, and the majority of the East MEC, in the month leading up to the election.

Most East pilots and many West pilots are well aware of what transpired, so you can skip the next few paragraphs, but for those of you who were not aware, here's the nutshell version: ALPA National, in an almost unprecedented act, put the PHL LEC Council 41 leadership into receivership, on a Friday night, on the weekend before the biennial MEC meeting in which MEC officers are elected. The move was a blatant ploy to ensure that the present MEC officers would all be re-elected, and that other officers, like Tracey Parrella (who actually fought for pilots against management, instead of the other way around, and therefore didn't fit in with the majority of the East MEC) would not be re-elected. Although the senatorial vote was 6-4 in favor of Capt. Parrella, the CLT F/O rep used the roll call to elect one of his buddies to the post; a man with virtually no grievance experience, who couldn't answer even the simplest questions about the process during his interview. (An interview that was carried out over speaker phone, as he was apparently too busy to interview in person -- and/or knew the election was in the bag, anyway.) This disgraceful sham by the East MEC led to a flood of resignations by valuable, experienced key committee chairmen and long-time volunteers, many of whom were devout ALPA loyalists who simply could no longer support such a corrupt organization.

Here's the other sideshow that was going on in ALPA East: a number of CLT line pilots had been petitioning the CLT LEC Council 90 officers to add an agenda item to their next LEC meeting, calling for an election for their recall. The CLT LEC reps postponed having an official meeting for as long as they legally could (while hosting several Save ALPA "Love Fests" in the meantime), and then conveniently left the recall petition off of the agenda when they finally held the meeting. (It is reported that they refused to accept certified letters from their constituents, knowing that they contained the request for the recall agenda item.)

So basically, the one Council that had almost unwavering support of its pilots was assassinated by ALPA National, leaving 40% of the East pilots unrepresented for six weeks (including the gentleman who had the unfortunate accident with the weapon); while the Council whose pilots do not support its leaders (and who up until Thursday essentially controlled the entire East MEC via the roll call vote) roundly ignored their pilots' wishes, in the quest to remain in power.

Yes, seniority was the overriding issue in the CBA election. But I cannot count the number of pilots I overheard saying that the egregious actions by ALPA National toward the PHL LEC, and the outrageous display of cronyism combined with the complete disregard of the line pilots' wishes by the East MEC was "the last straw" with regard to any remaining support for ALPA.

You just wonder how many of those 469 votes...