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ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

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You're missing nothing. Good points. I have posted before that ALPA is powerless to break the impasse. Hence the trusteeship as the first step.

Heard today that Lance and Marshall are running wild already replacing long standing ALPA volunteers on key committees. It will be a thing to watch as we have absolutely no say in what they do. April 17th can't come soon enough.

"It will be a thing to watch as we have absolutely no say in what they do."

Nonsense sir !!!: "YOU are Alpa"..remember? Everything that any east Alpa Rep's ever done/is doing is entirely your/our fault!! Oh..waitta' minute..we've already tried to initiate a recall against these guys and they've totally ignored it, as has Herndon. That last's almost "understandable" since they've likely been too busy executing Heretics and "appointing" non-elected replacements to concern themselves with much else lately.

I'm always suffused with a warm glow whenever I see the purest virtues of representative democracy put into action. 😉 Uh Oh...Arrgh!...They're at the door!!!..and I haven't finished my Loyalty Oath yet!!!

"First they came for the PHL Reps, and I didn't speak out, as I was not a PHl Rep".......😉
 
Spoken like a true "liberal". The difference between arbitrators, referees and Judges is that one's decision is appealable and one isn't. All persons are partial to something.

An arbitrator that doesn't use "stare decisis" is why we should NEVER use an arbitrator.

I don't use arbitrators in my contracts.
That's nice and all, but I don't see what that has to do with the discussion of the definition of "neutral."
 
March 5, 2008

TO ALL US AIRWAYS COUNCIL 41 PILOTS

Dear Fellow Council 41 Pilots:

On Monday, March 3, 2008, the ALPA Executive Council approved an emergency trusteeship for Local Council 41. As a result, Captains Rowe, Ciabattoni, and Portale no longer hold any ALPA office. There will be a full hearing before the ALPA Executive Board on this matter within 30 days.

We have accepted appointment to serve as trustees for our council. As the first order of business, we want to communicate with you since you deserve to know exactly what this means for you as Philadelphia-based pilots, and exactly what we plan to do on your behalf.

We have the responsibility and authority to conduct all the business of your Local Council and to act as your Local Council 41 representatives, except that we are prohibited by law from voting as MEC or BOD members. Starting today, we will ensure that the full range of ALPA services continues to be provided to the Council 41 pilots. In simple terms, there will be no disruption in Council 41 services.

We will communicate openly and frequently with you regarding all matters that affect Council 41 pilots. To that end, we will add pilots to our Communications Committee to inform you of anything regarding the representational election and the MEC, and national business affecting Council 41 pilots. We plan to make ourselves available in the crewrooms to discuss these matters, and we hope for an open and constructive dialogue with each and every one of you. If you need any ALPA support or services or have any questions or concerns or comments, please do not hesitate to e-mail us at the addresses listed below. Our cell phone numbers will be activated soon.

We also want to state at the outset that we support ALPA versus USAPA in the upcoming NMB election, oppose having USAPA as our bargaining agent, and will be urging you to vote for ALPA in the NMB election. Like all the elected Local Council representatives and MEC officers who support ALPA, we believe that staying with ALPA best serves our interests. At the same time, we are very sensitive to the issues confronting the East pilot group, we will continue to advocate for the interests of Council 41 pilots within our union, and, as we made clear when we accepted these positions, we will not accept a “cram-downâ€￾ on our watch as trustees. Further, the trusteeship does not affect the right of membership ratification or the voting rights of our members.

Please remain attentive to the critical issues that are coming before us in the near term, and, as always, please stay safe on the line.

Fraternally,


Captain Clyde Romero
E-mail: clyde.romero@alpa.org Captain Jack Lawrence
E-mail: jack.lawrence@alpa.org



THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE PHL PILOTS, THEY HAVE THER OWN AGENDA :down:
 
Do any other reps have alpa.org email addresses? It seems to me those are rare indeed.

Were I based in PHL, I think I would invite my expelled representative to any company interactions.

So if they don't vote, does that count as an "abstain" for any MEC actions? Or does the prohibition of voting now mean that PHL is not represented within ALPA. What a mess!
 
March 5, 2008

TO ALL US AIRWAYS COUNCIL 41 PILOTS

Dear Fellow Council 41 Pilots:

We will communicate openly and frequently with you regarding all matters that affect Council 41 pilots. To that end, we will add pilots to our Communications Committee to inform you of anything regarding the representational election .......


THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE PHL PILOTS, THEY HAVE THER OWN AGENDA :down:

"THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE PHL PILOTS, THEY HAVE THER OWN AGENDA "

Ya' Think!? :blink: :lol: I wonder how many dues-paid/FPL propogandists they will gather as they "add pilots to our Communications Committee"...which, surprise, surprise, has the stated goal of: "to inform you of anything regarding the representational election" This is truly some of the deepest layered BS I've seen and smelled in awhile.
 
So if they don't vote, does that count as an "abstain" for any MEC actions? Or does the prohibition of voting now mean that PHL is not represented within ALPA. What a mess!

Hmmm..you're raising legitimately concerned questions about Alpa.... As I understand it from the devout alpoids around the boards here...there are only "questions" where USAPA's concerned, and all should feel secure, warm and snuggly within the embrace of Alpo. Perhaps some of them can explain to us all why we've nothing to fret over during this time of Alpo circus acts and power grabs. :down: ...Anyone? 😉

Is it just me?...or..do others find some "wonder" in the idea of trumped-up BS "charges" being sufficent reason to immediately "convict" and remove Reps...from what's just-by-coincidence the most vocally opposed-to-Alpo chapter?..which is now, momentarilly, very "conveniently" muted via : "....act as your Local Council 41 representatives, except that we are prohibited by law from voting as MEC or BOD members". So...Let's see if I have this right:

1) There's apparently some "EMERGENCY!!" that requires the PHL council to be placed into "Trusteeship", ie, conveniently neutered for the benefit of Alpo's connivances during upcoming Rep elections/etc.
2) It's "OK" to instantly purge elected Reps from ALpo, not based on any inquiry/hearing, nor much less "trial" of any sort....OK.
3) The dues payers up in PHL will be given the great opportunity to pay for more "concerned pilots" on some new/BS "Communications Comittee", and receive in return, NO/ZERO voting on MEC issues/staffing/etc. Hmmm..that sounds entirely "reasonable" to me....It certainly reflects the will and desires of the line pilots...or perhaps not 😉 Words simply fail me other than:

These Alpo-scumbags are truly beneath contempt.

Let's VOTE!!! 😉
 
Quote from the america west airlines alpa leader.

"It’s too bad management blinked at USAPA’s shrill and chicken-#### complaints. I told management that USAPA’s complaints were BS and the litmus test was that I would be out there even if no election was going on.

I guess USAPA is afraid I might actually answer some questions. I can’t believe that they would try and ban someone like me who has dedicated almost every year of his career as a union advocate for line pilots (most of it NOT on FPL by the way) from talking with pilots."

John,

Your group of pilots undercut the airline industry for years. pilot pay chart click here

Your america west pilots have flown drugs, flown drunk and you have a ceo that drove drunk many times.

What did you expect, a brass band? You are the poster boy for why alpa has to go. You are an arrogant fool, that depends on ignorant and naive pilots to forget history.
 
america west alpa leader quotes below on his quest during a time where a new union will be considered for the US Airway pilots.

CC: NMB

"Started in the am out in PHX for 4 hours till the afternoon. Many of the same issues came up. Had a chance to speak a lot more about two post-USAPA issue with regards to AWA pilots paying dues to USAPA.

There are two basic scenarios - scorched earth, and what I like to call “french resistance movement.â€￾

The main thought behind scorched earth is no payment of dues, but both pilot groups have agency shop provisions in their contracts which means they may have to pay a service charge at least to stay employed.

The “resistanceâ€￾ method is more interesting because it calls for all pilots to become members, not enroll in dues checkoff and force USAPA to bill us all and slow roll them on payments."
 
My first observation was that he was politicking.

Since you're the only poster who has said that they were there (unless I missed a post)....

Was he was extolling the virtues of ALPA and listing the pitfalls of USAPA, all the while urging you to vote for continued ALPA representation?

"I thank him for clearing up some questions I had. Was it appropriate for him to be in CLT? Maybe not. Not my call!"

Hmmm, no mention of political campaigning.

"I took advantage of the chance to talk to him however, and now feel I have a better sense of where he stands on a number of concerns that all active, currently paying dues members may have."

And you thought he provided helpful info "on a number of concerns that all active, currently paying dues members may have." Did that include exhortations for you to vote for ALPA?

There was no mistaking what he was there for.

Did he promote ALPA's interests or just answer the questions you asked?

Stop trying to twist this to imply USAPA had anything do with his removal

Gee - wonder where I got the idea that USAPA had anything to do with it....

J Mac's message contents on the ejection from the crewroom - a version uncontested when I made my initial post. Followed by:

USAPA DID COMPLAIN!

Seemingly confirming J Mac's version.

You're the first to say otherwise, and I take your word at face value - if you were told by the CP that it was a company decision, that's good enough for me.

And to answer your original question, no - I don't have a dog in this fight. Like I said when I made my initial post on the subject, based on what had been posted to that point, it seemed that USAPA was potentially setting a dangerous precedent by apparently demanding a union rep be removed from the crewroom for merely answering pilot's questions. I know that if I were still active, knowing that a joint contract will be forthcoming eventually regardless of the name of the union and would possibly/likely contain some West contract provisions, I'd want some info on the West contract from someone who knows it, not someone who might have read it. Why? Because just reading a contract, or provisions of a contract, is no substitute for living under that contract when it comes to really understanding what all the words really mean. After all, isn't an informed pilot group a good thing?

I'd note that there still hasn't been any substantiation that J Mac was trying to sway anyone's vote or "campaign for ALPA" in any way, other than your somewhat late realization that "he was politiking" and "there was no mistaking what he was there for".

Jim
 
I'd note that there still hasn't been any substantiation that J Mac was trying to sway anyone's vote or "campaign for ALPA" in any way, other than your somewhat late realization that "he was politiking" and "there was no mistaking what he was there for".

Jim

Jim, what is your point? I truly do not know after reading your post above.
 
Do any other reps have alpa.org email addresses? It seems to me those are rare indeed.
All reps have ALPA email addresses available to them. It's their choice whether to use it, use their personal email address, or selectively both. Likewise with their outgoing email - they can send it thru ALPA, their own email provider, or selectively use either as they choose. At least that's how it was as recently as 15 or so months ago.

Jim
 
Jim, what is your point? I truly do not know after reading your post above.


Jim's posts and opinions are like having a second appendix. The first appendix has no use and well....you get the picture. He admittedly has no dog in this fight and his posts are meerly flame bait.
 
There is little more poignant than a picture of John Prater sitting silently and seething with anger and defiance at the reading of such a resounding call to the tenants of the CB&L (The call is toward the end). These tenants are the only hope of saving ALPA. For ALPA, by definition, ceases to exist the very moment that the members (and especially the leaders) reject and irreparably sully the tenants that define it. Prater and his EC could do nothing more than sit in silence, unable to deny they chose to set aside the CB&L before they set aside the men who defend it. Prater has chosen to destroy far more than he admits.

March 1, 2008

Members of the Executive Council:

We are responding to Captain Prater’s February 29th letter to the Council 41 Officers falsely accusing us, of a variety of charges. It is important to note that these charges were sent to us at 21:05 on Friday night. First and foremost, each of us, Captain Eric Rowe, Captain David Ciabattoni and Captain Jim Portale flatly deny and reject all charges levied against us. We take these charges very seriously as they attack our character directly. It is impossible, however, facing such serious accusations that have terrific consequences, to muster a proper defense, over the course of a weekend. This letter is not intended to serve as a comprehensive defense. We appreciate the President strictly following the minimum notification period required under the Constitution and By-Laws. We are very concerned that the late Friday night letter coupled with the untimely notification of a hearing on Monday morning could be construed as deliberate attempt to deny us due process. We therefore, respectfully request, a seven day extension in order to secure proper counsel, as well as the necessary time to prepare a defense commensurate the implications to the Council 41 Pilots, the Association, and us as individuals. This is nothing less than we would demand and expect for the pilots we represent, if charges were levied against them by our respective employers.

You may also be aware that we have a constitutional mandate to represent our Pilots at the First Quarter MEC Meeting in Charlotte on Monday. Your hearing before the Executive Council is in direct conflict with our MEC Meeting. A meeting that has been scheduled for months and may well be, the most important in years. We believe that our pilot’s representational needs at this MEC Meeting are paramount for the following reasons:

The meeting will include the election of MEC Officers and MEC Committee Chairman. Surely, the Association has no interest in ignoring the Philadelphia pilots and their input into these crucial elections -- or does it? Could a prime motivator of this action be only to ensure the continued service of Jack Stephan, Kim Snider, and Mike D’Angelo? These Officers, we remind you, are the ones whose leadership has given rise to a rival union and over six-thousand authorization cards submitted to the NMB asking for a change in representation. In addition, one of the more serious of Captain Prater’s charges are promulgated by Secretary-Treasurer D’Angelo, a perjurer of record.

The company has approached the Association for contract relief under the guise of being needed for the introduction of PHL-PEK service. Not only is granting relief to the company at this time a very hot topic , the development of the proposal itself has breeched many established protocols within our MEC structure. Neither the Chairman nor Vice Chairman of the Negotiating Committee were included in recent conference calls with Company officials, discussing this important issue. An issue, which as proposed, affects the pilots of our Council. In addition, the document, as proposed, has much broader implications than only providing the relief needed to implement China service from PHL.

We believe there is a very real possibility that a movement is afoot to re-engage the Blue Ribbon/GDR/Steering Group with the West’s counterpart. This has been demonstrated by a briefing being given to this group (Shadow MEC) instead of the AAA MEC on the China relief from our MEC Chairman. If this process was to resume, the PHL Pilots and their Representatives, have a number of qualifiers that would be required in order to ensure a successful process and durable solution. This is an opportunity which will be lost with the removal of the PHL Reps from the process.

The leadership and members of the GDR Group are trying to sell the US Airways pilots a lie, plain and simple. Specifically, the promotion of “Single Operations†as a fix to the Nicolau Award, is in the opinion of ALPA’s own outside counsel, Mike Abram, NOT in compliance with ALPA Merger Policy. He is on the record stating just that in Wye River just a little over a month ago.

Let’s Break Down a few of The Charges

“In addition to the failure of all of the Local Council 41 officers to declare support for ALPA, â€

This statement is simply NOT true! Dave Ciabattoni and Eric Rowe met with Captain Prater in Washington DC privately on February 14th. We gave him the same pledge that we know many other MEC members gave. During the conversation he asked us about informational meetings in PHL similar to those held in CLT. We advised against it and gave him good reasons for it and in the Associations interest. We told him it would have the same affect as Andy Kauffman’s death -- nobody would believe it in Philly! We did, however, tell him that if he had the “guts†to attempt a meeting, then we would be there with him. No meetings have since been scheduled. We surmised that he took our advice and for once he believed us. We were told by Captains’ Prater and Stephan that we were operating within the boundaries of Merger Policy and therefore, Trusteeship was not an issue. We got the impression from our meeting that all had gone well because he took no issue with anything we said. Captain Prater even picked up the tab for our dinner when he left. All in all, it was a pleasant discussion. That was the last conversation we had with Captain Prater until receiving his letter. Captain Prater’s timing is not lost on us.

“and their joint communications reflecting a pattern of support for USAPA, “

The record is this; in over one-hundred Fastreads over the last two and one half years there have been only two corrections printed. Not once, let me repeat, NOT ONCE, has the Association or any of its officers written, called, or otherwise notified the Council 41 Officers that our writing and or rhetoric was “anti-ALPA†or “pro-USAPAâ€. Now, suddenly and without warning, our literary efforts rise to the level of trusteeship? This is hardly the standard to which we hold any of our managements along a disciplinary path. Does progressive discipline ring a bell with anyone on the EC? Does anyone at Cohen Weis and Simon, the authors of this charging document, understand the concept? â€

“On February 27, 2008, Captains Rowe and Ciabattoni each further showed his support for USAPA by attempting to recruit a HIMS liaison for the Association to perform the same services for USAPA. This discussion with the HIMS liaison concerning work for USAPA took place while they were speaking to him in their capacity as LEC Officers and ALPA representatives.â€

We know of no other Representatives who work more closely with Captain Javaras, in his capacity as our Aero-Medical coordinator, representing our pilots. We have frequent conversations with him and did in fact have a conversation with him on February 27. The three of us, along with our Training Committee Chairman, are currently advocating for one of our Pilots who has found himself “in a bit of a spotâ€. During that discussion we simply asked Captain Javaras, “What are you going to do if USAPA wins?†to which he replied, “I work for the pilotsâ€.

It would be strange at this late juncture to characterize this type of conversation as “recruiting for USAPAâ€. As recently as the LEC Officer nominating meeting in Boston, this fall, as he was sitting at the head table, Mike D’Angelo, known perjurer and promulgator of the charges levied against your Council 41 representatives, he made exactly the same statement in response to the same question, “I work for the pilots.†Jack Stephan, Kim Snider, and Garland Jones have all made similar statements in MEC Meetings or in our crew rooms, over the last several months.

“Captains Rowe and Ciabattoni have stated that they do not “work for USAPA,†but they have not denied that they are providing support and assistance to USAPA, “

We hereby deny that we have EVER provided support and assistance to USAPA. If there is any evidence of this charge, either physical or via testimony, we have yet to be presented with any documentation. This is because it does not exist. Captain Prater has failed to produce any evidence with the delivery of these charges and has not provided any as of the time of this writing. How possibly can a defense commensurate to the charges brought against us at 21:05 on a Friday night be prepared by Monday morning?

“nor have they repudiated their prior communications reflecting a pattern of supportâ€.

Again, we ask not only which single communication supported USAPA but which string of communications support the charges of “reflecting a pattern of support for USAPA�

“Likewise, none of the three Local Council 41 officers has declared that he supports ALPA in the representation election and would urge Local Council 41 members to vote for ALPA in the representation electionâ€.

I, Eric Rowe, have an “ALPA†speech which I have given perhaps a hundred times promoting the attributes of the Association over the last eight months. Many times this speech was given in the presence of ALPA’s lead counsel, Mike Abram. Simply put, I believe that ALPA offers our pilots the absolute best template for union representation available to our pilots. Do you really want to say this? To Captain Prater, and the rest of you sitting on the Executive council I submit the following question; How much more of a promotion do you think is believable as we wade in a sea of yellow lanyards while a huge portion of our council has never missed a day of work or a month’s worth of ALPA dues and yet find themselves junior to apprentice members who has never having been liable for a single ALPA dues dollar, via a process sanctioned and sponsored by the Association? I submit to you all, only so much is credible in a council such as ours.

I, David Ciabattoni am in receipt of your letter dated February 29, 2008 in which you delineate the charges the Association has made against the Council 41 Officers and proposal of emergency trusteeship of Council 41.

In response to the request made for a statement in writing, I hereby state that I whole-heartedly and unequivocally affirm my complete support and backing for the founding principles and objectives of our Association, as embodied in the Constitution and By-Laws under Article I, Section 6, Paragraph B.

There are twelve references to “membership†in paragraph B. This, I believe, is the true meaning of our Association – protection and representation of the membership. I can have no greater responsibility bestowed upon me by the membership who elected me.

With the spirit of Captain Behnke lingering in the background, I will testify to the President of our Association, the ALPA Executive Council, and the ALPA Executive Board of my continued support for these principles. I am in complete agreement with the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws and their Objectives, and have spent my entire tenure as a duly-elected Council 41 Officer discharging these duties to the best of my abilities.

However, there appears to be a growing chasm of differing opinions between you and me on the priorities such an elected official should have.

In reading the aforementioned letter of charges, I have noticed that there is not a single mention of the word ‘membership.†Is this an oversight? How can you be faithfully discharging your responsibilities to the membership of such a storied Association yet fail to even account for their existence in the context of representation?

In your letter, there are four paragraphs which charge the Council 41 officers with “failure to provide the necessary support for ALPA.†But there is also a glaring omission of any charges of “failure to properly and honestly represent the membership.â€

What is our duty? For what did Captain Behnke and his contemporaries sacrifice so much, to represent the line pilot against the machinations of the E.L. Cords, Frank Lorenzos, and Doug Parkers of the world? Or to ensure a durable entity above the line pilot to which their representatives must pledge their allegiance?

I will always state my enduring objective to support the membership of our Association with every ounce of my being.

John, will you join me, and the membership who elected me to represent them, by stating your enduring objective to support the membership? The guidance is in our Association’s Constitution and By-Laws.

Please, John, join me. Together we can rebuild this Association into a great representative body for the man who desperately needs it now – THE LINE PILOT.

Lastly, on February 14, 2008, we sent Captain Prater a letter requesting that he, as well, commit to all of the provisions of the ALPA Constitution and By Laws. We have yet to hear from him in this regard. Pledges of commitment are a two way street. We have made ours’ in this letter and would be happy to elaborate at the next most reasonable opportunity.

In closing, in light of the peculiar notification timeline, the fact that we are wholly unable to obtain legal counsel, the lack of any warning, and the lacking of any credible evidence against us, we respectfully request a reasonable time to prepare our defense prior to your consideration of this proposed trusteeship. The representational rights and responsibilities of the Philadelphia pilots are at stake. The reputation of the Association is at stake, in the eyes of our profession. It is our great hope that your decision on this matter ultimately be judged to be proper in the eyes of our membership moving forward.

We await your response. In the meantime, we anticipate that you will respect our constitutionally mandated duty to represent our pilots at First Quarter US Airways MEC meeting in Charlotte tomorrow.


Sincerely,


Captain Eric Rowe


Chairman Council 41



Captain Dave Ciabattoni


Vice Chairman Council 41
 
All reps have ALPA email addresses available to them. It's their choice whether to use it, use their personal email address, or selectively both. Likewise with their outgoing email - they can send it thru ALPA, their own email provider, or selectively use either as they choose. At least that's how it was as recently as 15 or so months ago.

Jim

Jim, McIlvenna is THE WEST MEC CHAIRMAN. He may be a pilot, but, again, the purpose of his visit is UNION BUSINESS....INTRA-UNION BUSINESS. He has every right to go up into the terminal and engage in any union business he cares to undertake. Any crusade he desires. So does the USAPA leadership. So does the East MEC and the East MEC Chairman. The company may have looked the other way in the past for union leaders to meet on "hallowed" ground.

They do so now at their OWN peril. The company, BY LAW, must stay out of it.

John McIlvenna is NOT a pilot first...he is the UNION leader for the West and his mission is clear....to engage in a union fact-finding mission crusade:

"This is not a USAPA versus ALPA thing. Nor is it a campaign tour, quest for higher ALPA office, or any other absurd spin that someone will surely come up with. This is an effort to find out what ideas all pilots have that can solve this mess. Whether you are wearing an ALPA lanyard, a USAPA lanyard or no lanyard at all, I want to listen and speak with you and find out what you think a solution should look like."

This is UNION business for a SOLUTION to a UNION PROBLEM, and no court in the COUNTRY would find otherwise. The road to heaven is paved with good intentions and to that I would only say to John "welcome to Charlotte". However, like all union business, it is conducted OFF company property. THAT IS THE LAW. That is the way it has always been done. It is really interesting how you ALPA guys really try to get it every which way you can.

Even jumpseating and writing about it on the ride over from PHX is construed as a violation. McIlvenna should be worried about the stuff he wrote on the web board he put up. I hope he didn't breach confidentiality protocol on company business.
 
america west alpa pilot leader quote after being asked to leave CLT crew base quote;

"I can’t believe that they would try and ban someone like me who has dedicated almost every year of his career as a union advocate for line pilots (most of it NOT on FPL by the way) from talking with pilots."

John prater hired a clown to visit the clt crew lounge, john mac, he was asked to leave but could not believe why.

Yes John mac,

In the field of alpa unionism, you think you are a god, sorry we did not realize who we were listening to. Arrogance of alpa shills.

Johnny Mac showing up at clt crew lounge and being asked to leave clip.
 
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