AMT compensation

[Bob Owens]

Not if OH is striking to keep weekends off.....................I cannot stress hard enough how little line mechs care if OH has to work weekends!!!

Weren't you a Yes vote? So you were'nt willing to strike for money either so this doesnt come as a suprise.

 

[Bob Owens]

if you knew who I am I'm far from anti-union and will never cross to management's scum bag side, but I'm a realist and I'm on here to stand up for Line because WE have never had a voice in negotiations. Period! To put it more bluntly so everyone get's it.....I'm tired of following Fleet and OH and always settling for pittance. I'm one thinking outside the box. I see AMT's at SWA, UPS and Fed EX working LINE maint. making $50 per hour and here I sit making $33, and I'm not supposed to bring to attention the reason why? Go Pound Sand Szabo!

The subcommittee is made up of three Line guys and three OH guys. There is no roll-call in the subcommittee. Line issues are not pushed aside and we are equals at the table this time. For the Two years that I've been in Negotiations Larry Pike has never waivered in supporting Line issues, in fact it was other Line representatives that voted against things like GEO Pay, increased shift pay, etc and to accept the failed TA.

Both Representatives from AFW voted against the TA, one from Tulsa Voted for it and one voted against it (both have since been voted out of office) and both from MCI voted for it(which has since been closed). So out of the six votes from Overhaul three voted against the TA and three voted for the TA, a draw. The Line NO Votes were McMahon-DCA, Ruiz -LAX, Argentina JFK, and Owens-JFK, all the rest were YES. It was the line who voted to accept the TA.

There's no doubt that we have suffered because in the past the majority of the guys in Tulsa followed their leadership and accepted deals that caused great hardship for us, but that didnt happen this time, it nearly didnt happen in 2003. As far as the TA, Tulsa voted against what their President at the time recommended 3 to 2. How did your station vote in 2003? Did they vote 90% or better against the Concessions? If all the Line had voted 90% or better then the concession of 2003 would have failed so we cant pin all the blame on OH. We have our own out here on the line who share some of the blame. IIRC in 1995 if all the people from NY Local 501 who didnt bother to vote had voted NO or didnt mutilate their ballot by adding comments then the concessions of 1995 would have failed. How did your station vote this time? Its not like the line stations all voted 90% or better NO and OH has been voting in these concessions anyway, if we had then we probably would not be in the position we are in. Some Line stations have had higher Yes votes than Tulsa in some of these votes.

The Internet has changed things, it gives us the opportunity to communicate and share perspectives. This gives us the opportunity to understand each other and work together to help meet each others needs. We then can become more unified, lets not blow it.

 

[Bob Owens]

delete

 

[iluvaa]

So you think they should hire enough mechanics to start another line then lay them off once they are caught up?

Years ago when they were pulling the 727s out of the desert and had the bases running at max capacity they sent what they couldnt do in a timely manner to Delta. Whats stopping them now? I feel that either nobody is sitting around with an empty bay, it would cost more, or both. Not sure if thats what you meant when you said you "agree that if they had a place to do them they would be there".

No Bob I was agreeing with you that they are not manning all docks to capacity and if there was a place to send them they would

 

[odie01]

It's pretty obvious AMP may not be the answer EITHER! Look around and see how many of your AMFA supporters will walk when AA gets released? Unified, HA! Unified my ass! It's been 8 years of taking it in the shorts, and I walk around with a bullseye on my back along with a few other guys that DO OUR JOBS! You don't like the truth, and most of the guys on here don't want to here the truth. We all pay the same union dues, but don't get equal SAY in anything that happens around here. It's been like that for many years. I'm tired of this and bringing other ideas to realistic problems. GET IT!
Screw the TWU....AMP and any other union that caters to the wishes of the majority, and leaves the minority following with our hand out! That's been my life at AA for 20 years! Not any more Pal!

Once again StrikeForce, whats the solution? We are all in this together, AMT's line, OH, welders, machinists, parts washers, osm's, facility maintenance. We are not going to wedge this thing any more than it is.

 

[Frank Szabo]

if you knew who I am I'm far from anti-union and will never cross to management's scum bag side, but I'm a realist and I'm on here to stand up for Line because WE have never had a voice in negotiations. Period! To put it more bluntly so everyone get's it.....I'm tired of following Fleet and OH and always settling for pittance. I'm one thinking outside the box. I see AMT's at SWA, UPS and Fed EX working LINE maint. making $50 per hour and here I sit making $33, and I'm not supposed to bring to attention the reason why? Go Pound Sand Szabo!

Damn - it would seem I hit a nerve - good.

If you'd have been paying attention, you'd have read I'm all for the line crew making a higher wage than overhaul as well as understanding the need for geo pay (which was voted away by our "representation").

The last I heard, democracy is a system that allows one vote per person and the group with the most votes wins. That is why this country's Founders instituted the Senate so as to help eliminate the "Tyranny of the Majority" they recognized could happen with a straight democracy, exactly as you rightfully complain about here.

I'm not sure exactly what you feel an overhaul mechanic would be worth or, for that matter, a Tool & Die Maker with nearly 40 years in trade as I am. You'll have to get back with us on that.

The unfortunate thing about your argument is with the democracy everyone says they want (including you), the $50 per hour for line just won't happen, like it or not as you and the others will be, unfortunately, caught up in the tyranny of the majority and I don't see the TWU adding a senate-type component to the voting procedures now in place.

Perhaps you'd be good enough to tell us what procedure(s) would be suitable to you re: negotiations to assist in getting what you demand.

 

[PhatSappy]

Time is on AA's side.

 

[Duke787]

Weren't you a Yes vote? So you were'nt willing to strike for money either so this doesnt come as a suprise.

I know i'm not the only one that isn't going to turn down a $39 an hour contract so OH can have weekends off. When they're paying $200k for a house with a lot of land, (I can only hope those guys have their house paid off by now) that their work schedule is their biggest priority.

 

[OldBubba]

I only hunt with a shotgun, so I think it ok to ban hand guns, rifles, bows, sticks and stones! So the question is, when only shotgun are left will the guys fight for my shotgun rights when I didn't fighting for thier rights.
Of course you well LOL , NOT

ME, me, I only care about me me!!! I don't care about OH, (those dirty greese monkey that rig systems) I don't care about LINE! ( pen pusher ) I don't care about anybody but me!

Bottom Line! stop fighting each other and bad mouthing each other. You may gain in the short run but in the long run your kids well pay the price and we'll be pick off one group at a time! Thats why UNION GOT STARTED PEOPLE!

 

[enough already]

The compAAny has always been masterful at divide and conquer, with the twu's pathetic help. Back in the 80's and 90's they were successful with the "A", "B' and "C" grade divisive negotiating. Then we had the smoke screen of the TWA debacle and when 9/11 hit the twu might as well have been non-exsistant. Now AA has found another foothold to divide us: Line vs. Overhaul, and again, as usual, the pitiful twu (and the sheep following them) have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

When will we ever learn to act as a truly unified body?

 

[TWU informer]

While all this chest pounding, drum beating, and strategies to fight a battle go on, the fact still remains that we continue to work under a concession agreement that fast approaching 8 years in length. All the while we were pacified by James C Little on his "without further ratification" Industry Leading in reverse agreement by the offering of the long past and never used "early opener option" on the agreement.

I am personally tired of the radicals controlling the pace of negotiations by trying to re-negotiate every article of the previous T/A and then offering a proposal that appears to have done nothing more than eliminate any chance of an agreement as to when to meet to negotiate next.

After several request for explanation as to why there were no future mediation dates were set, we have been stonewalled by the same radicals that have created the problem.

I am tired of the tough talk, while we are subjected to secret negotiations that leave us wondering what exactly is really taking place.

You guys might be able to survive on adrenalin created by tough talk, but that doesn't do a damn thing relieve the suffering of the membership.

Get on with it already.

 

[TWU informer]

The compAAny has always been masterful at divide and conquer, with the twu's pathetic help. Back in the 80's and 90's they were successful with the "A", "B' and "C" grade divisive negotiating. Then we had the smoke screen of the TWA debacle and when 9/11 hit the twu might as well have been non-exsistant. Now AA has found another foothold to divide us: Line vs. Overhaul, and again, as usual, the pitiful twu (and the sheep following them) have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

When will we ever learn to act as a truly unified body?

It appears to me that some TWU Line AMT's are the one's pushing the Line vs Overhaul division. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the compAAny for all divisions of the past either. I suspect most of these divisions have been TWU proposals and ideas, just as the current division that is taking place.

Union my Ass

 

[enough already]

It appears to me that some TWU Line AMT's are the one's pushing the Line vs Overhaul division. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the compAAny for all divisions of the past either. I suspect most of these divisions have been TWU proposals and ideas, just as the current division that is taking place.

Union my Ass

I believe that you're giving the twu to much credit. The leadership, for the most part is made up of those that are either ignorant or apethetic and have not had an original thought of their own. They simply do and say what the compAAny tells them to...

 

[strikeforce]

Damn - it would seem I hit a nerve - good.

If you'd have been paying attention, you'd have read I'm all for the line crew making a higher wage than overhaul as well as understanding the need for geo pay (which was voted away by our "representation").

The last I heard, democracy is a system that allows one vote per person and the group with the most votes wins. That is why this country's Founders instituted the Senate so as to help eliminate the "Tyranny of the Majority" they recognized could happen with a straight democracy, exactly as you rightfully complain about here.

I'm not sure exactly what you feel an overhaul mechanic would be worth or, for that matter, a Tool & Die Maker with nearly 40 years in trade as I am. You'll have to get back with us on that.

The unfortunate thing about your argument is with the democracy everyone says they want (including you), the $50 per hour for line just won't happen, like it or not as you and the others will be, unfortunately, caught up in the tyranny of the majority and I don't see the TWU adding a senate-type component to the voting procedures now in place.

Perhaps you'd be good enough to tell us what procedure(s) would be suitable to you re: negotiations to assist in getting what you demand.

The issue of majority vs. minority lays more in the negotiating process with the use of "Roberts Rules of Order" and the "Roll Call Vote". Past practice has shown that TUL, and primarily TUL, has used the roll call vote to accept concessionary deals. To me that's not democratic, and should not be used for the benefit of membership organizations, unless the majority (TUL) is paying my union dues, which they're not. So, in a fair and balanced vote a one local-one vote is fair for all size locals, thereby eliminating the 800lb gorilla (TUL) from dominating, and influencing the outcome of the entire vote count, whether the deal is favorable for Line or OH. Unfortunately, all labor organizations use Roberts Rules of Order to conduct business including negotiations. Now, if AMP can somehow eliminate the "Roll Call Vote" as part of the constitution, I will never #### again or blame the 800lb gorilla for screwing the minority membership (Line), and I will support AMP wholeheartedly.
Look, Tulsa chose to diminish the craft and class by accepting SRP's back in 1995. That was the beginning of the end for TUL and the bases. In the failed TA, AA introduced the Airline Support Mechanic.....another form of non-licensed AMT helper. AA wants OH but at a reduced cost. Precidence has been set by TUL to inflate the non-licensed ranks at the benefit of keeping OH. Therefore, the AMT classification in TUL will quickly dwindle and eventually TUL will be 90% OSM, SRP and ASM's. The problem for me is that down the road, and I hope I'm retired by that time, is that non-licensed helpers will dictate the wages and benefits for the skilled AMT's both in OH and Line because they will be the majority. So, the solution is either stop the amount of helpers in OH, or eliminate the "Roll Call Vote" in the constitution. Very difficult to do the latter! Matter of fact, about 15 years ago in the Prseident's Council, a Line local president made a motion to eliminate the Roll Call Vote, and low and behold TUL used the Roll Call Vote to squash it. Real democratic Frank.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip
So, in a fair and balanced vote a one local-one vote is fair for all size locals, thereby eliminating the 800lb gorilla (TUL) from dominating, and influencing the outcome of the entire vote count, whether the deal is favorable for Line or OH.
... snip

We're saying the same thing but using different examples. My examples had to do with the federal government

The "roll call" vote is the one where the majority rules and what was referred to by the Founders as the "Tyranny of the Majority". One might consider this the House of Representatives where reps are numerated by the number of people they have to represent. The left and right coasts would dominate all lawmaking and were it not for the checks provided by the Senate would have thrown us into a socialist or communistic state by now, or more so than it already is.

The "One Local, One Vote" you refer to would be the check provided by the Senate as there are two per state and both branches must agree on any issue before it can be advanced.

Robert's Rules of Order, to my knowledge, provides no relief from "the majority rules" for those that want more of a voice in their future.

I agree with you but rest assured many have a stake in insuring the line gets crapped on, right or not.