APA Proposes Pay Restoration

[eolesen]

One employee's actions aren't necessarily indicative of the whole mechanic group.... Just look at [deleted].

 

[North by Northwest]

Well, by any measure, the performance (financial or operation) is mediocre...so your pay is currently accurate. The stock is currently subpar...would you prefer to move there? You did reap the rewards of that but seem to forget your portion.

And your justification for a managements 7fold (less than the pigs at the trough of other airlines) pay increase on the backs of the people who actually make an airline fly would be? The BIZARRE notion that you can focus your comments on employee pay and completely ignore the glutoney of airline management tells me your view of the big picture is blurred and selectively myopic.

I suppose mediocre performance implies a 7 fold pay raise for some..but not for others? Is that how your formula works?

It is you and those like you that forget ...you nor this country will have airlines if it weren't for the rank and file.

It's getting time to remind the entire country of that. We are fools for having let it go on this long.

 

[eolesen]

It is you and those like you that forget ...you nor this country will have airlines if it weren't for the rank and file.

It's getting time to remind the entire country of that. We are fools for having let it go on this long.

Right. Go ahead and remind the country. They've been oh so supportive of unions over the past thirty years...

Fact is that, just like Walmart, airlines always manage to find someone willing to work for low wages. The legacy airlines who try to hold on to cost structures which can't be supported by revenue will go the way of Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, and dozens of other startups who had failed business plans from the get-go.

Even Southwest is showing signs of trouble. The pioneers who created the culture at WN are setting off into the sunset. There are fewer and fewer left at all levels. Soon, they'll be just another airline, too...

 

[North by Northwest]

Right. Go ahead and remind the country. They've been oh so supportive of unions over the past thirty years...

Fact is that, just like Walmart, airlines always manage to find someone willing to work for low wages. The legacy airlines who try to hold on to cost structures which can't be supported by revenue will go the way of Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, and dozens of other startups who had failed business plans from the get-go.

Even Southwest is showing signs of trouble. The pioneers who created the culture at WN are setting off into the sunset. There are fewer and fewer left at all levels. Soon, they'll be just another airline, too...

Another one whom seems to think the "cost structure" doesn't apply to the 7-10 fold pay increase of airline management ...but MUST apply to employees or the company will go under. It's that tired song "from your pockets to ours" because "our costs are too high". But not so high as to impact my tens of millions in bonuses. (they are inflation proof, and Walmart price proof)

You can always find someone to work for less...but not if you have to replace the entire industry. And if the industry is united there won't be one employee losing a job.

BI, PA, EAl all failed for DIFFERENT reasons, ALL of which can be traced back to incompetent management skills. (of which they were richly rewarded)

SW's balance sheet is the strongest in THE WORLD. They have nothing to worry about for years. Moreover, they owe their position to savvy management.

 

[AirLUVer]

I think once WN has to start paying full price at the pump. AA will be able to pay competitive wages. Half of the reason why AA's profits are up this year is because WN has instigated several fare increases, because their hedges are erroding.

 

[flyhigh]

NxNW,

Mgmt pay is paltry in comparison to others in the same position elsewhere as well. As for the rank and file making the airline go...mgmt is just as important in making it go. It's always nice to hear line people think schedules and pricing just happen magically or that finance is a just some mythical endeavor, but line work is to be held up as the highest order.

 

[North by Northwest]

NxNW,

Mgmt pay is paltry in comparison to others in the same position elsewhere as well. As for the rank and file making the airline go...mgmt is just as important in making it go. It's always nice to hear line people think schedules and pricing just happen magically or that finance is a just some mythical endeavor, but line work is to be held up as the highest order.

It doesn't work like that fly. No leader should ever think they are above those they lead. The mentality that American business has turned into some kind of oligarchy, and the rank and file are there to keep the company running and enrich current leaders is fine...IN Russia.

Things changed in America about 100 years ago. If airline management is unhappy with a system that rewards them reasonably..i.e as in Europe/ Asia, then they should seek work elsewhere...just as they have told airline employees. No one has EVER said that management doesn't contribute to the wheel, it's when management begins to think they ARE THE wheel.

They will NOT succeed in this industry. The party is over. If push comes to shove...I think the entire industry should lay bare with a complete shutdown. Perhaps that will put a halt to the unchecked greed that they feel "entitled" to. (for their accomplishment of being able to slash employee pay to profit).

You ask the flying public who's more important to them..Airline management or the people who ensure their safety, before they leave the ground, in the air, and in times of emergency. It is incredible that people actually think crew members should be prepared to die (in the line of duty, while risking their lives for pax and crew) for peanuts because it rarely happens. Check your insurance rates.

 

[eolesen]

Another one whom seems to think the "cost structure" doesn't apply to the 7-10 fold pay increase of airline management

Sure it does. And so does market pricing.

Fact is that AMR's management salaries have always lagged those of other airlines. A L5 manager at AMR earns around $80K. The same job at UAL would net them $100K or more. Outside the airlines? Some folks I know doubled their money. I didn't double my money, but I'm certainly not complaining about having money left over at the end of the month.

At the executive levels, total compensation was at a fraction of what they were for other companies in the Fortune 100, including companies who were losing more money on an annual basis than AMR.

I don't necessarily endorse multi-million dollar compensation packages, but I think that the "outrage" will fall on a lot of deaf ears, including the heads of the mainstream media, who probably receive more individually than the top 5 people at any one airline combined.

BI, PA, EAl all failed for DIFFERENT reasons, ALL of which can be traced back to incompetent management skills. (of which they were richly rewarded)

And yet those companies failed after years and years of mistakes, primarily because incompetent management was the best they could find at the end. Why is that? Do you think that a good network planner, financial strategist or product designer is going to go to work for the lowest bidder just for the flight passes? Hardly.

Again, when you benchmark at industries with similar revenues, AMR's exec salaries aren't that far out of line with the norm, and not every corporation in America is conspiring to inflate management salaries. Most want to provide a return on investment for shareholders as well, and you can't do that if you're overpaying the guys at the top.

 

[North by Northwest]

There used to be a formula that saw to it airline management was reasonably rewarded..then greed set in, it began to grown exponentially by the x power, while the rank and file saw pay cut after pay cut.

Employee pay should be tied to the performance of the company AND management pay. NO more CEO pay for stock performance (which is what drove the SLASH employee pay to run up the stock price).

Shareholders are walking on thin ice. They are approaching the point of airline employees forcing the hand of confronting greed and the government that has supported it.

Employees will NOT be left out of the same profitable reward as management. NW is a prime example. They forced the company into BK for personal enrichment.

"Let's see, do we weather the storm and I make 5 million next year, or do we play the BK card and I make $26.6MILLION?" I like the sound of that $26.6 MILLION, lets slash their pay 40% and make a run for it!

Total reward ...$400 million to NW management for "needed paycuts". There is a serious war brewing at NW (we are even more angry than during BK) as is AA/ UA.

 

[eolesen]

There used to be a formula that saw to it airline management was reasonably rewarded..then greed set in, it began to grown exponentially by the x power, while the rank and file saw pay cut after pay cut.

Right. And people used to stand on mountaintops holding hands and singing "I'd like to buy the world a Coke..."

Perhaps pay and salaries didn't go up as ridiculously as they did at other carriers who raped their employees, but I don't recall paycut after paycut at AMR. I remember only one paycut. Ever. And it should have been done 18 months earlier than it was.

Shareholders are walking on thin ice. They are approaching the point of airline employees forcing the hand of confronting greed and the government that has supported it.

Employees will NOT be left out of the same profitable reward as management. NW is a prime example. They forced the company into BK for personal enrichment.

"Let's see, do we weather the storm and I make 5 million next year, or do we play the BK card and I make $26.6?"

Whatever. "Workers of the world unite!" has been a rallying cry for a long time. It has yet to materialize.

 

[North by Northwest]

Right. And people used to stand on mountaintops holding hands and singing "I'd like to buy the world a Coke..."

Perhaps pay and salaries didn't go up as ridiculously as they did at other carriers who raped their employees, but I don't recall paycut after paycut at AMR. I remember only one paycut. Ever. And it should have been done 18 months earlier than it was.
Whatever. "Workers of the world unite!" has been a rallying cry for a long time. It has yet to materialize.

OK...you hit the magic trigger, the use of "whatever". That's when I end my debate with the bambino set.

When AA, UA, NW, CAL...can create operating margins like European carriers, while paying respectable wages, then you can talk.

"Workers of the world unite!" has been a rallying cry for a long time. It has yet to materialize"...

Do some home work on American labor, that "rallying cry" created the largest middle class on Earth, because of Unions. I wouldn't be so sure that it couldn't happen again.

 

[eolesen]

Labor also created the largest middle class under a largely isolationist foreign policy. Given how the past few administrations, Blue and Red alike, have opened our markets to foreign labor, I think you're living in a dream world if you think that will ever be reversed.

Sure, there are small pockets left here and there for middle/working class workers, mainly with regard to services that can't easily be outsourced/offshored, i.e. unloading ships/aircraft, public services like police/fire/teachers/transit/medical. But that's waning.

Labor's power has been greatly diminished from where it was 30 years ago. Even the all mighty Teamsters have lost their battle to keep Canadian and Mexican trucks and drivers from carrying loads within the US. Canadian trucks already compete freely for domestic loads. Mexican trucks were permitted to start carrying domestic loads in September (they used to be limited to within 20 miles of the border).

At some point, foreign crew members are going to be flying routes within the US. It's just a matter of when, and once that happens, the pilots will lose what's left of their bargaining power.

And, to be fair, it's also just a matter of time before you'll see the wholesale outsourcing of airline management (including CEO's) once controls over foreign ownership and control are dropped. Virgin America has a shell structure in place to comply with the terms of their certificate, but there's no doubt that Branson would rather be "out of the closet" in terms of controlling them from the UK. Likewise, I'm sure LH would love to take over UA, and KLM would love to take over NWA to the same extent they have AF. It's not possible now, but that's not to say that it won't be possible in ten years.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----Eric, You've left out one example that still may come about! AA/BA! I feel if they could have gotten around the 49/51% law, it would have already happened!

 

[North by Northwest]

Labor also created the largest middle class under a largely isolationist foreign policy. Given how the past few administrations, Blue and Red alike, have opened our markets to foreign labor, I think you're living in a dream world if you think that will ever be reversed.

Sure, there are small pockets left here and there for middle/working class workers, mainly with regard to services that can't easily be outsourced/offshored, i.e. unloading ships/aircraft, public services like police/fire/teachers/transit/medical. But that's waning.

Labor's power has been greatly diminished from where it was 30 years ago. Even the all mighty Teamsters have lost their battle to keep Canadian and Mexican trucks and drivers from carrying loads within the US. Canadian trucks already compete freely for domestic loads. Mexican trucks were permitted to start carrying domestic loads in September (they used to be limited to within 20 miles of the border).

At some point, foreign crew members are going to be flying routes within the US. It's just a matter of when, and once that happens, the pilots will lose what's left of their bargaining power.

And, to be fair, it's also just a matter of time before you'll see the wholesale outsourcing of airline management (including CEO's) once controls over foreign ownership and control are dropped. Virgin America has a shell structure in place to comply with the terms of their certificate, but there's no doubt that Branson would rather be "out of the closet" in terms of controlling them from the UK. Likewise, I'm sure LH would love to take over UA, and KLM would love to take over NWA to the same extent they have AF. It's not possible now, but that's not to say that it won't be possible in ten years.

Oh contraire Mon Aimee!

You seen the papers today...guess you'll be watching "re runs" for the foreseeable future. (Union Action)

Do your homework...don't try to shop that SNAKE OIL management tonic here.

http://www.teamster.org/07news/nr_070911_2.asp (Union Action)

The big flow of slaves from the Third World is about to come to a screeching halt...read up on the "SAVE act" (with Bipartisan support) making it's way Congress. It WILL pass. (Union Action)

If you think you will live to see the day when Americans give up aviation security after 9/11...well, you have been dipping into the Kool Aid way too much at work. (Union Action)

Ask Gov. Spitzer of NY about his "license for illegals scheme"...suffice it to say, he won't be around for a second term. Talk is already getting started on a recall.

P.S. One thing I will agree with you on...Outsourcing airline management is a clever idea. Perhaps then we can see some skill and healthy margins.

 

[eolesen]

I could care less about the screenwriters. There hasn't been decent writing on TV in years. I prefer watching the BBC and Discovery Channel, so regardless what happens with the screenwriters guild, there will always be entertainment produced.

Regardless of blocking the funding, the fact is that it's just a matter of time before it is restored. NAFTA allows it. Now, if you want to focus efforts on repealing that, I'll be standing right there with you. But for now, it's the treaty we're obligated to comply with. And, if the SAVE Act does pass, it will have to be reconciled with NAFTA at some point, and it will be hard to justify it as anything less than protectionist.

Airline ownership guidelines in the US will be revised. Again, it's just a matter of time. The EU Open Skies treaty due to be enacted in a few months pretty much requires that foreign ownership and cabotage be allowed within the next three years, otherwise there's a possibility it may be repealed by the EU member states. The UK didn't open up LHR to competition without at least the promise of that. Branson wants Virgin America to be unfettered, and BA wants AA. They won't settle for anything less, and wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep over having Bermuda II or something even more restrictive?) remain in place.