APFA vs. AFA

[737823]

I heard the contract that the former CO flight attendants have is pretty good, but AFA cruised to an easy election win thanks to sheer numbers of UA FAs and the help of a misinformation campaign

The IAM contract was a company wish list contract. Yes it had high pay rates but the health care, work rule and job protections from AFA are superior. Google Bob Korzuch, the newark local had a long history of corruption and was ultimately placed in trusteeship.

Josh

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

The IAM contract was a company wish list contract. Yes it had high pay rates but the health care, work rule and job protections from AFA are superior. Google Bob Korzuch, the newark local had a long history of corruption and was ultimately placed in trusteeship.

Josh

 
The PMUA side currently has a glut of flight attendants, and is furloughing even more. Could the work rules that AFA negotiated be partially to blame? My understanding is that they contribute to inefficiently-built trips with excessive layover time as well as monthly caps on the number of hours flown-- don't work rules like this contribute to AFA's gain by padding its membership and increasing its dues income? My feeling is that AFA often negotiates what is best for AFA, not necessarily what is best for its membership.

 

[737823]

The PMUA side currently has a glut of flight attendants, and is furloughing even more. Could the work rules that AFA negotiated be partially to blame? My understanding is that they contribute to inefficiently-built trips with excessive layover time as well as monthly caps on the number of hours flown-- don't work rules like this contribute to AFA's gain by padding its membership and increasing its dues income? My feeling is that AFA often negotiates what is best for AFA, not necessarily what is best for its membership.

As do most unions. The leaders want to secure the union and their cushy positions and are out of touch with the membership they aspire to serve. Look at the recent UA CBA, filled with concessions gutting scope for most stations, paltry pay raises and a few more holidays but its a pathetic agreement all around. The union wins with unlimited part time and unlimited split shifts but it devastates the lives of many employees. Same with the Hawaiian part-time reserve language.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

The IAM contract was a company wish list contract. Yes it had high pay rates but the health care, work rule and job protections from AFA are superior. Google Bob Korzuch, the newark local had a long history of corruption and was ultimately placed in trusteeship.

Josh

 
 
Inferring that Korzuch is somehow representative of the IAM is like  saying Bernie Madoff is somehow representative of the entire financial community.
 
Is he still trying to get traction as an anti-IAM  "reform" candidate?

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

It's my understanding that APFA is going to merge the US Air F/A's date of hire, one for one.
 
Does AFA have a better offer than that?

 
AFAIK, the AA and US flight attendants aren't really debating SLI (yet?). DOH seems to be equitable with one adjustment: US and AA have a different definition of what DOH is. DOH at US is the actual date-of-hire, DOH at AA is considered the first day after training that you report to your base.
 
Unless a compromise adjustment is made for the AA flight attendants, there could potentially be a US flight attendant who was hired after [me, for example] put above in the seniority list. In my case, a US FA hired over two months after me could be put ahead of me on the list because my training was so long (over eight weeks).
 
Obviously to be fair and equitable, some adjustment will need to be done, and APFA president Laura Glading had been discussing this very issue in the meetings with Mr Holmin before he got all trigger happy with his Reset Button.
 
-astra

 

[737823]

Inferring that Korzuch is somehow representative of the IAM is like  saying Bernie Madoff is somehow representative of the entire financial community.
 
Is he still trying to get traction as an anti-IAM  "reform" candidate?

You tell me.

Josh

 

[IORFA]

AFAIK, the AA and US flight attendants aren't really debating SLI (yet?). DOH seems to be equitable with one adjustment: US and AA have a different definition of what DOH is. DOH at US is the actual date-of-hire, DOH at AA is considered the first day after training that you report to your base.
 
Unless a compromise adjustment is made for the AA flight attendants, there could potentially be a US flight attendant who was hired after [me, for example] put above in the seniority list. In my case, a US FA hired over two months after me could be put ahead of me on the list because my training was so long (over eight weeks).
 
Obviously to be fair and equitable, some adjustment will need to be done, and APFA president Laura Glading had been discussing this very issue in the meetings with Mr Holmin before he got all trigger happy with his Reset Button.
 
-astra

What a nice addition you have become for this forum. Welcome! I hope you enjoy working for AA as it isn't as bad as some here make it seem.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

What a nice addition you have become for this forum. Welcome! I hope you enjoy working for AA as it isn't as bad as some here make it seem.

 
Thank you! I'll be able to breathe a little easier in February when I get off probation

 

[jimntx]

AFAIK, the AA and US flight attendants aren't really debating SLI (yet?). DOH seems to be equitable with one adjustment: US and AA have a different definition of what DOH is. DOH at US is the actual date-of-hire, DOH at AA is considered the first day after training that you report to your base.
 
Unless a compromise adjustment is made for the AA flight attendants, there could potentially be a US flight attendant who was hired after [me, for example] put above in the seniority list. In my case, a US FA hired over two months after me could be put ahead of me on the list because my training was so long (over eight weeks).
 
Obviously to be fair and equitable, some adjustment will need to be done, and APFA president Laura Glading had been discussing this very issue in the meetings with Mr Holmin before he got all trigger happy with his Reset Button.
 
-astra

I have some bad news for you. There will be no adjustment because you were not a company employee until you successfully completed training and went on the payroll. If US Airways f/as go on the payroll/company roster the day they start training then, yes someone hired 6 weeks after you would have a DOH before you.

That little catch was explained to us when we started training, but I have heard that it is not being explained like it used to be. They made it clear to us that while we were in training we were not company employees and could be dismissed from training at any time for any reason with no recourse. Nor, would we receive any compensation other than our hotel room and some meals being paid for by the company.

 

[IORFA]

The union came up with an average amount of days to adjust our seniority dates to make it more even. I don't think that was objected to by anyone from Verizon/United/CWA/AFA.

 

[kirkpatrick]

APFA will get little support from ex-TWA people, but we're down to about 900 so we don't have a lot of power.  It could help swing a close election, however.
 
So what has APFA done for me?  To start, they stapled me in 2001, wiping out 29 years of hard-earned seniority, and causing me to be on furlough for six years since the acquisition.  When I have been flying I've been subject to reserve and holding nothing but the worst S80 trips.
 
They signed their SIA (Seniority Integration Agreement) with the company giving us our original seniority in STL, and then took it away as soon as we were recalled, mumbling something about "continuous employment".  This was in spite of the fact that there were hundreds on furlough at the time the agreement was signed and nothing was said about them not reverting to their original seniority when recalled.
 
Once the last native was recalled they decided to change the policy where furloughees were exempt from paying dues.  Can't have us swinging those elections and grabbing those chairs in STL and for a while, LGA, can we?  The "poll tax", as we call it, caused us all to come back with debts of from several hundred to over a thousand dollars.
 
When computing the equity in the "New American" they chose a time frame when most of us were furloughed, so that even the most senior of us (myself included) got only about half of what others got.  Those last one recalled got zip, zilch, nada.
 
I think the US contract is better than the CLA we're working under now with only one or two exceptions.  Seven bucks in dues won't be a deal breaker for me.
 
Let me remind you I said I'd "probably" go for AFA.  Nobody has me in their pocket yet.  Show me the goods.
 
MK

 

[737823]

APFA will get little support from ex-TWA people, but we're down to about 900 so we don't have a lot of power.  It could help swing a close election, however.
 
So what has APFA done for me?  To start, they stapled me in 2001, wiping out 29 years of hard-earned seniority, and causing me to be on furlough for six years since the acquisition.  When I have been flying I've been subject to reserve and holding nothing but the worst S80 trips.
 
They signed their SIA (Seniority Integration Agreement) with the company giving us our original seniority in STL, and then took it away as soon as we were recalled, mumbling something about "continuous employment".  This was in spite of the fact that there were hundreds on furlough at the time the agreement was signed and nothing was said about them not reverting to their original seniority when recalled.
 
Once the last native was recalled they decided to change the policy where furloughees were exempt from paying dues.  Can't have us swinging those elections and grabbing those chairs in STL and for a while, LGA, can we?  The "poll tax", as we call it, caused us all to come back with debts of from several hundred to over a thousand dollars.
 
When computing the equity in the "New American" they chose a time frame when most of us were furloughed, so that even the most senior of us (myself included) got only about half of what others got.  Those last one recalled got zip, zilch, nada.
 
I think the US contract is better than the CLA we're working under now with only one or two exceptions.  Seven bucks in dues won't be a deal breaker for me.
 
Let me remind you I said I'd "probably" go for AFA.  Nobody has me in their pocket yet.  Show me the goods.
 
MK

How is it that APFA did all that to you when the IAM was the union that waived the protection you had? APFA worked with what has given to them to integrate the seniority lists. APFA has and had an obligation to represent the interests of the AA F/As, not the TWA F/As after the IAM screwed you guys over.

Josh

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

 
Let me remind you I said I'd "probably" go for AFA.  Nobody has me in their pocket yet.  Show me the goods.
 
MK

 
There are plenty of flight attendants who have been screwed over by AFA as well. I'll use the Midwest Express flight attendants as an example.
 
I have a friend who originally flew with Ozark and was furloughed by AA. She started flying for Midwest, and when Republic bought them in 2009 they immediately began returning all their 717s to their lessors and furloughing crew. AFA continues to do nothing for all the flight attendants who lost their jobs. I believe the best they got was either their seniority at a regional airline (republic) making a regional salary, or an offer to get stapled to the bottom of Frontier's list making Frontier's base pay (an offer they rejected, by the way) but only for those flight attendants who were on YX property the day that Republic purchased F9.
 
Believe me, I understand where you are coming from MK, but don't you agree that, going forward, APFA's record of representing their membership strongly during airline combinations is a good thing? I know you were on the wrong side of it last time but now, it is your interests who will be protected against the competing agenda of the AFA-represented flight attendants at US.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Jimntx, as I and IORFA said, the adjustment for AA seniority was on the discussion table and agreed to in principle, before Mr Holmin hit his big ol' red reset button. It wasn't going to be a full 8 1/2 weeks, but it was something fair enough. But I suppose everything is all up in the air once again…all the more reason, for me anyway, to regard AFA's agenda as disingenuous going forward.

 

[johnny kat]

I think it is very important to take things into perspective. The union dues increase argument is really ridiculous "7 bucks". For that extra seven bucks AFA members enjoy much better medical insurance, much better work rules, more flexible use of vacation days, affiliation with the AFL/CIO and the list goes on. Please take the time to review the comparison charts...that is all I am saying.

And I am not nescessarily AFAs biggest fan, so don't think I am anti APFA. But I am not really seeing a lot of things to cheer about in the APFA contract. For instance how the vacation days must be used or the amount of sick time accrual monthly. I believe the scheduling rules at AA are horrible. But thats just me. Everyone really needs to think long term.

As for an industry standard contract...it sounds good while you are in BK, but you have to consider what "industry standard" really means in the airline industry. DL Bankrupt, UA Bankrupt so any industry standard contract is based upon bankrupt airline's standards. Management's dream come true. Let's not be shortsighted, let's take the best from both. Why not just merge the two unions and start working toward a better future all together. Kumbaya