AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Apparently these "principles" are only in play if one thinks that they can get away with it.

"Never mind that I am a liar and a thief, I have principles!!!" (Principles according to Easties)
That is what they meant by 'Integrity" on the T-shirts.

Criminy! This is truly like I'd imagine attempted communication with a completely alien species to be!

What supposed principles do you even claim (or even absurdly fantasize) to actually have? What, even slightly "moral", umm... "principle" can be found that allows anyone the insanely self-obsessed delusion that he/she is magically "worth" so much more, that it's ever just fine to say to another person: "Get outta' my way! I don't care if you've worked/flown/etc at least 14 more years than myself for this clusterf-k!..."im SPECIAL dang it! St. Nic said so!...and, well...clearly having neither zero personal character or the slightest semblance of a moral code is NOT gonna' get in MY way!" In actual fact; THAT is what they meant by "integrity" on both the T-shirts, and your group's entire position as I see it. Speaking of which; the fact that you can even employ the phrase "Stealing what rightfully belongs to someone else", while at the same time, eagerly lusting to be magically and instantly made "senior" to their far greater doh/los/etc, qualifies both the laughable line (and yourself of course) for an unquestionably and uncontested first place in the Joke of the day competition. Thanks for the laughs...seriously 😉

 

[EastUS1]

It's a term of endearment for an airbus... a' la Sparky, Wonder Chicken, Electric Jet, etc.

You perhaps do realize that "Old Sparky" was a term of endearment for an infamous electric chair...?..That later became commonly used for many such? Airbus = An obvious instrument of Darkness 😉

 

[fifidriver]

Hello Eastus! Top o' the mornin' to ya!

Since my wife is out carousing with her girlfriends at her class reunion, and I am drinking alone til she comes home or I am forced to go retrieve her, I'll humor you.
First let me apologize for being so blunt with respect to your writing style and your web persona. (It takes one to know one) I expect that you are really not a bad person, and that you might actually believe that you are doing the "right thing" in supporting your fellow Easties who have labored so diligently for so long for this "clusterf-k!...", as you so eloquently phrased it.
However, I firmly believe that your last expression of comtempt for your current employer underscores the primary reason that your seniority paradigm does not align with the seemingly accepted perspective of not only the rest of the industry, but the legislative branch of our government (McCaskill-Bond), and the populace as a whole. It appears to me from your expression, "this clusterf-k!...", that although the company that you and your fellow aviators so tirelessly sacrificed and labored for, for so many years, ("14 more" than myself or some other "johnny come latelys...") ceased to exist quite some time ago, and that you, by expression, do not quite agree. Let me rephrase. The company that you sacrificed your souls for is DEAD!, buried and rotted in the graveyard of aviation has beens, for about seven years now!
As a Westie, I still fly the same airplanes, on the same routes, from the same terminals, with the same people, however, with new colors and a new name over the door, I believe that it is exponentially easier for me to actually accept or conceptualize that the company that I was hired with so long ago ceases to exist. I suspect that it is not quite as simple for an Eastie, and although your company stock value, if closely monitored, probably mirrored reality quite accurately, the average Eastie still thinks that he or she works for the same old company, most likely as a result of the lack of name change, change in middle management or just the status quo. As evidenced by your choice of words, in your "heart of hearts", it also appears that you too, somehow believe that you still work for that same old company.

You could not be further from the truth!

If you cannot accept that we all work for a new company, in toto, with all its ramifications, do not waste your time reading any farther.
If then, we all work for a new company that is arguably 50% larger from a East pilot group perspective, (or 200% larger from a West pilot perspective), except for a self serving "majority vote", why then do you believe that relative positions in a combined group should drastically change to accomodate the longsuffering "ne'er do wells" that populate the lower tier of the failed enterprise?
Let us examine the position of the most junior Captain and the most senior First Officer at HP. (assuming that the FO wanted to upgrade immediately and bid accordingly) Absent a merger, he expected upon completion of upgrade training, (which was scheduled), an imminent raise in pay and status for the remainder of his career. Let us now examine the position of the most junior Captain and most senior FO at the original US airways, not the new company, which would more properly be called LCC. The most junior Captain expected to be downgraded, and the most senior FO expected that he/she would not upgrade for quite some time and that someone senior would be bidding in ahead of them for quite some time to come. That, incidentally, is a gross understatement.

Why exactly do you believe that the sorry FO that labored for the failed corporation should suddenly acquire the career expectations of the FO that worked for the viable corporation?

Simply because he worked for his LAST carrier for a longer period of time?

Some might label that a "windfall"!

That misunderstanding, the glib promises of a union past, and the simple fact that the misperception of reality occurred in the larger group has put us where we are today.

I repeat: Why exactly do you believe that the sorry FO that labored in vain for the failed corporation should suddenly acquire the career expectations of the FO that worked for the viable corporation? Especially since it is quite likely that a primary cause of the original carriers extinction was that the pilots of that corporation were paid more money than their competitors or the market would bear.

Alternately, what if I flew night freight longer than you? Who gives a flying F----? That was a different company and a lifetime ago.

If you have bothered to read this far, I salute your literary capabilities, but fear that your capacity for universal empathy and logic are sorely lacking.

I also realize that your time until forced retirement is significantly less than mine, and accordingly, I bid you "bonne chance / merde!"

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Hello Eastus! Top o' the mornin' to ya!

Since my wife is out carousing with her girlfriends at her class reunion, and I am drinking alone til she comes home or I am forced to go retrieve her, I'll humor you.
First let me apologize for being so blunt with respect to your writing style and your web persona. (It takes one to know one) I expect that you are really not a bad person, and that you might actually believe that you are doing the "right thing" in supporting your fellow Easties who have labored so diligently for so long for this "clusterf-k!...", as you so eloquently phrased it.
However, I firmly believe that your last expression of comtempt for your current employer underscores the primary reason that your seniority paradigm does not align with the seemingly accepted perspective of not only the rest of the industry, but the legislative branch of our government (McCaskill-Bond), and the populace as a whole. It appears to me from your expression, "this clusterf-k!...", that although the company that you and your fellow aviators so tirelessly sacrificed and labored for, for so many years, ("14 more" than myself or some other "johnny come latelys...") ceased to exist quite some time ago, and that you, by expression, do not quite agree. Let me rephrase. The company that you sacrificed your souls for is DEAD!, buried and rotted in the graveyard of aviation has beens, for about seven years now!
As a Westie, I still fly the same airplanes, on the same routes, from the same terminals, with the same people, however, with new colors and a new name over the door, I believe that it is exponentially easier for me to actually accept or conceptualize that the company that I was hired with so long ago ceases to exist. I suspect that it is not quite as simple for an Eastie, and although your company stock value, if closely monitored, probably mirrored reality quite accurately, the average Eastie still thinks that he or she works for the same old company, most likely as a result of the lack of name change, change in middle management or just the status quo. As evidenced by your choice of words, in your "heart of hearts", it also appears that you too, somehow believe that you still work for that same old company.

You could not be further from the truth!

If you cannot accept that we all work for a new company, in toto, with all its ramifications, do not waste your time reading any farther.

Let us examine the position of the most junior Captain and the most senior First Officer at HP. (assuming that the FO wanted to upgrade immediately and bid accordingly) Absent a merger, he expected upon completion of upgrade training, (which was scheduled), an imminent raise in pay and status for the remainder of his career. Let us now examine the position of the most junior Captain and most senior FO at the original US airways, not the new company, which would more properly be called LCC. The most junior Captain expected to be downgraded, and the most senior FO expected that he/she would not upgrade for quite some time and that someone senior would be bidding in ahead of them for quite some time to come. That, incidentally, is a gross understatement.

Why exactly do you believe that the sorry FO that labored for the failed corporation should suddenly acquire the career expectations of the FO that worked for the viable corporation?

Simply because he worked for his LAST carrier for a longer period of time?



I repeat: Why exactly do you believe that the sorry FO that labored in vain for the failed corporation should suddenly acquire the career expectations of the FO that worked for the viable corporation?

Well you actually should have DUI on speed dial, since your "DRINKING ALONE" and going to retrieve your wife, maybe you could get put in the womens lockup also! MM!

 

[fatherabraham]

Why exactly do you believe that the sorry FO that labored for the failed corporation should suddenly acquire the career expectations of the FO that worked for the viable corporation?

FIfi,

Not addressed to me above, but would like to respond.
I believe your many words/reasoning fall on above false premise.
Rank/file IMO should not be tied to the ups & downs of the organizations they happen to be employed at a particular snapshot in time. No way in the world can you convince any Eastie that you should reap ANY Bennie over them for actions of mgt. Just simply how trade unions historically work for unarguable reasons!
For example, no one in his right mind would publish his name attached to a premise of placing oneself 14years ahead of an AA pilot simply because they are currently in BK.
No difference here.....regardless of lengthy reply.

FA

 

[traderjake]

Rank/file IMO should not be tied to the ups & downs of the organizations they happen to be employed at a particular snapshot in time.

Are you saying that it's wrong that our pay and career is some how be related to the financial health of the company we work for?

"Oh, the humanity".

 

[fatherabraham]

Are you saying that our pay and career should not be related to the financial health of the company we work for?

TJ,

Will assume that's a rhetorical Q.
Here's one for you............name any bottom performer ( any airline ) that gets it's fuel for less because of their financial challenges ( spread sheet ).

FA

 

[traderjake]

Will assume that's a rhetorical Q.

No, it's a literal question.

If not that, what do you mean?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

FIfi,

Not addressed to me above, but would like to respond.
I believe your many words/reasoning fall on above false premise.
Rank/file IMO should not be tied to the ups & downs of the organizations they happen to be employed at a particular snapshot in time. No way in the world can you convince any Eastie that you should reap ANY Bennie over them for actions of mgt. Just simply how trade unions historically work for unarguable reasons!
For example, no one in his right mind would publish his name attached to a premise of placing oneself 14years ahead of an AA pilot simply because they are currently in BK.
No difference here.....regardless of lengthy reply.

FA

WAIT TILL there "SOLD OFF" and want to explain that ! LMFAO!

 

[cactusboy53]

WAIT TILL there "SOLD OFF" and want to explain that ! LMFAO!

Keep laughing Mut, it will help the pain later.

 

[Ames]

Criminy! This is truly like I'd imagine attempted communication with a completely alien species to be!

What supposed principles do you even claim (or even absurdly fantasize) to actually have? What, even slightly "moral", umm... "principle" can be found that allows anyone the insanely self-obsessed delusion that he/she is magically "worth" so much more, that it's ever just fine to say to another person: "Get outta' my way! I don't care if you've worked/flown/etc at least 14 more years than myself for this clusterf-k!..."im SPECIAL dang it! St. Nic said so!...and, well...clearly having neither zero personal character or the slightest semblance of a moral code is NOT gonna' get in MY way!" In actual fact; THAT is what they meant by "integrity" on both the T-shirts, and your group's entire position as I see it. Speaking of which; the fact that you can even employ the phrase "Stealing what rightfully belongs to someone else", while at the same time, eagerly lusting to be magically and instantly made "senior" to their far greater doh/los/etc, qualifies both the laughable line (and yourself of course) for an unquestionably and uncontested first place in the Joke of the day competition. Thanks for the laughs...seriously 😉

Ok, I'll take this one. On the day the "merger" was announced I was a captain and Dave Odell was the bottom FO at a company that was growing 15% per year. You were a captain and Dean Cohlello was the bottom FO at a company that was about to become extinct.

I would say that Odell's and my positions were worth more than yours and Cohlello's. Yet, Odell is furloughed and Cohlello is gainfully employed. I believe something was taken and something was gained - but certainly not in the way you describe.

If you eastholes have your way my seniority will be usurped by over 700 numbers by pilots who were on furlough when the "merger" was announced. Again, something taken (from the west) and something gained (by the east).

I really do hope this all ends on Tuesday in Judge Silver's courtroom but either way, "thanks for the laughs..... seriously."

 

[A320 Driver]

I really do hope this all ends on Tuesday in Judge Silver's courtroom but either way, "thanks for the laughs..... seriously."

Don't get your heart set on that. Judge Silver is hearing oral arguments. That is a LONG way from a judgement. Theoretically, after motions and more hearings, we might not know anything for a long time.

I too wish Tuesday would be the end of it, one way or the other, but it won't...seriously.

Driver...

 

[luvthe9]

RECALL HUMMEL NOW............FYI, The APA has planned picketing events in the first 2 weeks of October at the following locations:

1. LGA on October 1, 2012
2.DCA on October 11.

Some American pilots have been contacted and they would appreciate our support and assistance if offered and our pilots are welcome to participate. Here is the kicker

The USAPA Officers are aware of these events and are refusing to communicate this message to US Airways pilots. Their reasoning; by supporting APA we are in fact sending a message that we are promoting Doug Parker and his management. The APA is picketing against their management. Their message is and unfair labor practices and their signs state that they need a management change at their airline. Hummel is twisting this to mean that they are supporting Doug Parker and our participation would be seen as helping Doug Parker!

Convoluted as it is, our Officers are aware but not passing this information out to the Board or our pilots. Are we a " Trade Union of Pilot's for our Profession" or are we only US Air pilots in the game for only ourselves?? That is the question to be asked and that is why we have not been notified of previous picketing events by the APA.

Supporting Parker my ass, how about supporting our distressed Brother's and Sister's in need as they attempt to fight against the oppressive use of bankrutpcy that has destroyed all our careers.

The officers will not allow any official USAPA Communications to support our Brothers and Sisters at American on the picket line. Any help or assistance that you can muster to get the word out to our pilots would be a blessing! I know the American Pilots would appreciate our assistance and show of solidarity at these events.

This needs to be made known to all.

 

[Claxon]

What a sob story Ames. I like how you predicate your entire career on the merger day. Let's forget the rest of the AWA years? You had your bankruptcy and Parker himself told the truth when he was first in line for the ATSB. Your operation was fraying by the second.
Ultimately the Nic will be thwarted in this epic war. Just like the USA on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese could say they won the war. The merge day was the western sneak attack on careers of the eastern div. It will end likewise with an epic conclusion of the Nic being nuked in court.

 

[Ames]

Don't get your heart set on that. Judge Silver is hearing oral arguments. That is a LONG way from a judgement. Theoretically, after motions and more hearings, we might not know anything for a long time.

I too wish Tuesday would be the end of it, one way or the other, but it won't...seriously.

Driver...

A friend of mine used to work in the court and tells me that often Judge Silver conducts oral arguments by presenting a preliminary judgement and telling the attorneys to talk her out of it. It could be over soon. Or not.