AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Ames]

Wow! Are there no limits on how much time spent in Fantasyland some can truly invest? The world does not, nor ever has, or ever will, revolve around anyone's childish expectations.

.....says the guy who thinks that just because a pilot signed on 14 years before another (at a failing company) deserves to jump way ahead of one who was working at a thriving, growing company.

It is true that the world does not revolve around anyone's childish expectations. That's why we have arbitration.

 

[Ames]

"..a company that was about to become extinct." (but in reality didn't) 😉

.....thanks to the fine men and women at America West Airlines!

 

[Ames]

Wow! Are there no limits on how much time spent in Fantasyland some can truly invest? The world does not, nor ever has, or ever will, revolve around anyone's childish expectations. = "..a company that was about to become extinct." (but in reality didn't) and "...worth more than yours and Cohlello's. Yet, Odell is furloughed and Cohlello is gainfully employed." "worth more" indeed, yet the poor fellow, in actual reality, is unfortunately furloughed? Seriously; since this apparently passes for supposedly logical process here (at least by west standards?)....Why waste the time? 😉

This post is absolute balderdash! There's a big word for ya. Go get a T-shirt with that word on it. Might calm you down. Fool.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Ok, I'll take this one. On the day the "merger" was announced I was a captain and Dave Odell was the bottom FO at a company that was growing 15% per year. You were a captain and Dean Cohlello was the bottom FO at a company that was about to become extinct.

I would say that Odell's and my positions were worth more than yours and Cohlello's. Yet, Odell is furloughed and Cohlello is gainfully employed. I believe something was taken and something was gained - but certainly not in the way you describe.

If you eastholes have your way my seniority will be usurped by over 700 numbers by pilots who were on furlough when the "merger" was announced. Again, something taken (from the west) and something gained (by the east).

I really do hope this all ends on Tuesday in Judge Silver's courtroom but either way, "thanks for the laughs..... seriously."

WHO BOUGHT WHOM?​

US AIRWAYS CREW NEWS​

CHARLOTTE​

SEPTEMBER 20, 2011​

FLIGHT ATTENDANTS​

SPEAKER: Thank you. Just a quick question.
Going back five years ago, I'm a West coast guy, and I do a lot of commuting in and out of the West. And I'm just misled constantly from the West and the East. I mean, we are definitely two separate airlines, still.

Now, I hear a lot of the West people talking five years ago during this merger, so they say, was there money exchanged? Did US Airways and America West, who bought who? Who merged?
Because I hear it constantly from the West, Well, we bought you, so we should control you.

So who owns who?

MR. PARKER: Who says that to you?

SPEAKER: I hear it constantly from the West crews.

MR. PARKER: All right. Well, tell them to call me. Let me tell you, look that's not accurate.

SPEAKER: Was there money exchanged? I thought it was just a simple merger.

MR. PARKER: I'm happy to explain it. I was I would like to hope we were past this, but since it

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)

MR. PARKER: Yeah, no, I know. This is not meant to be negative on your question. I just wish we still weren't having to go through this because I don't think it matters is the real answer.

But I'm happy to go through what did happen if it helps.

What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, would have liquidated. So be it.

I think that's where this some of this comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you got to finish the story.

USAir-America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger well, let me tell you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.

America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think America West standalone this is this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they anyway, whatever reason.

But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.

If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could have I'm pretty sure I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.

So and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.

Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.

A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.

So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.

That did not look like a good formula for the America West…for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.

So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do you know, which, again, I I think we should all feel good about we were able to go convince people that, while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real airline, and all we need is cash.

And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?

Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.

But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.

So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their own. It only came from the power of the merger.

So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, get tired of hearing this stuff.
It's just absolutely…

SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.

MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible).

MR. PARKER: But, anyway, but that's the point. But, anyway, the answer is, you know, we…we needed each other. And I know we still got a lot of work to do. As Eddie says, we haven't quite gotten the marriage completed.
But, you know, if we hadn't gotten the engagement done, we wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARKER: So all right. Anyway, thanks for asking.

SPEAKER: Thank you.

 

[Claxon]

WHO BOUGHT WHOM?​

US AIRWAYS CREW NEWS​

CHARLOTTE​

SEPTEMBER 20, 2011​

FLIGHT ATTENDANTS​

SPEAKER: Thank you. Just a quick question.
Going back five years ago, I'm a West coast guy, and I do a lot of commuting in and out of the West. And I'm just misled constantly from the West and the East. I mean, we are definitely two separate airlines, still.

Now, I hear a lot of the West people talking five years ago during this merger, so they say, was there money exchanged? Did US Airways and America West, who bought who? Who merged?
Because I hear it constantly from the West, Well, we bought you, so we should control you.

So who owns who?

MR. PARKER: Who says that to you?

SPEAKER: I hear it constantly from the West crews.

MR. PARKER: All right. Well, tell them to call me. Let me tell you, look that's not accurate.

SPEAKER: Was there money exchanged? I thought it was just a simple merger.

MR. PARKER: I'm happy to explain it. I was I would like to hope we were past this, but since it

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)

MR. PARKER: Yeah, no, I know. This is not meant to be negative on your question. I just wish we still weren't having to go through this because I don't think it matters is the real answer.

But I'm happy to go through what did happen if it helps.

What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, would have liquidated. So be it.

I think that's where this some of this comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you got to finish the story.

USAir-America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger well, let me tell you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.

America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think America West standalone this is this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they anyway, whatever reason.

But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.

If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could have I'm pretty sure I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.

So and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.

Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.

A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.

So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.

That did not look like a good formula for the America West…for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.

So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do you know, which, again, I I think we should all feel good about we were able to go convince people that, while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real airline, and all we need is cash.

And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?

Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.

But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.

So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their own. It only came from the power of the merger.

So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, get tired of hearing this stuff.
It's just absolutely…

SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.

MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible).

MR. PARKER: But, anyway, but that's the point. But, anyway, the answer is, you know, we…we needed each other. And I know we still got a lot of work to do. As Eddie says, we haven't quite gotten the marriage completed.
But, you know, if we hadn't gotten the engagement done, we wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARKER: So all right. Anyway, thanks for asking.

SPEAKER: Thank you.

Nic4 and Ames live in a fantasy land they have built in their minds to justify their leapfrogging those who actually worked the job long before they came along. Their fantasy is also the same for HPEarly? (what ever that means)
Judge Silver now will be forced to indemnify LCC from the NIC, as she knows the 9th will destroy her if she doesn' a la Wake. Things are boiling down to the bare bones, and the Nic is DOA. The smoke of war will quickly clear, and it is not going to be good for the fantasy Team of Tempe. Fact is, and Parker made it very very clear- Franke Air was about to take another dip into the bankruptcy pool. There goes the "THRIVING GROWING" argument. FLUSH!

 

[Claxon]

.....says the guy who thinks that just because a pilot signed on 14 years before another (at a failing company) deserves to jump way ahead of one who was working at a thriving, growing company.

It is true that the world does not revolve around anyone's childish expectations. That's why we have arbitration.

Apparently your CEO has a different opinion AMES. Who should we believe? The CEO, or the line pilot with Nicolau on his mind.......

 

[Keroseneuser]

WHO BOUGHT WHOM?​

US AIRWAYS CREW NEWS​

CHARLOTTE​

SEPTEMBER 20, 2011​

FLIGHT ATTENDANTS​

SPEAKER: Thank you. Just a quick question.
Going back five years ago, I'm a West coast guy, and I do a lot of commuting in and out of the West. And I'm just misled constantly from the West and the East. I mean, we are definitely two separate airlines, still.

Now, I hear a lot of the West people talking five years ago during this merger, so they say, was there money exchanged? Did US Airways and America West, who bought who? Who merged?
Because I hear it constantly from the West, Well, we bought you, so we should control you.

So who owns who?

MR. PARKER: Who says that to you?

SPEAKER: I hear it constantly from the West crews.

MR. PARKER: All right. Well, tell them to call me. Let me tell you, look that's not accurate.

SPEAKER: Was there money exchanged? I thought it was just a simple merger.

MR. PARKER: I'm happy to explain it. I was I would like to hope we were past this, but since it

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)

MR. PARKER: Yeah, no, I know. This is not meant to be negative on your question. I just wish we still weren't having to go through this because I don't think it matters is the real answer.

But I'm happy to go through what did happen if it helps.

What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, would have liquidated. So be it.

I think that's where this some of this comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you got to finish the story.

USAir-America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger well, let me tell you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.

America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think America West standalone this is this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they anyway, whatever reason.

But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.

If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could have I'm pretty sure I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.

So and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.

Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.

A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.

So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.

That did not look like a good formula for the America West…for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.

So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do you know, which, again, I I think we should all feel good about we were able to go convince people that, while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real airline, and all we need is cash.

And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?

Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.

But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.

So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their own. It only came from the power of the merger.

So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, get tired of hearing this stuff.
It's just absolutely…

SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.

MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.

SPEAKER: (Unintelligible).

MR. PARKER: But, anyway, but that's the point. But, anyway, the answer is, you know, we…we needed each other. And I know we still got a lot of work to do. As Eddie says, we haven't quite gotten the marriage completed.
But, you know, if we hadn't gotten the engagement done, we wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible).

MR. PARKER: So all right. Anyway, thanks for asking.

SPEAKER: Thank you.

Just like the democrats there are many on here with selective hearing when it comes to this. They ignore what Parker has said and keep chanting "We saved you"

 

[Claxon]

.....thanks to the fine men and women at America West Airlines!

Yes, the ones who were about to take another swim in the bankruptcy pool.

 

[OldpropGuy]

What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, would have liquidated. So be it.



But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.

​

​

So, US Airways would have been liquidated and gone, while America West would have been bankrupt but still around back then, with the question of whether they would survive in the long run. This doesn't appear to be an advantage for the East!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just like the democrats there are many on here with selective hearing when it comes to this. They ignore what Parker has said and keep chanting "We saved you"

Just like those that ignore what Parker said that they didn't like as well as ignoring reality at the time of the merger...

Jim

 

[end_of_alpa]

[/center]

So, US Airways would have been liquidated and gone, while America West would have been bankrupt but still around back then, with the question of whether they would survive in the long run. This doesn't appear to be an advantage for the East!

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.

One fifth of 1700 is 340. Would YOU still have a JOB?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Just like those that ignore what Parker said that they didn't like as well as ignoring reality at the time of the merger...

Jim

Unlike the we saved you west crowd I acknowledge that neither side was in any shape to claim anything. Especially career expectations.

 

[end_of_alpa]

[/center]

So, US Airways would have been liquidated and gone, while America West would have been bankrupt but still around back then, with the question of whether they would survive in the long run. This doesn't appear to be an advantage for the East!

Parker:

So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.

That did not look like a good formula for the America West…for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.

 

[OldpropGuy]

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.

One fifth of 1700 is 340. Would YOU still have a JOB?

No I never had a job at America West and am retired now anyway! Just trying to understand how with liquidation as the next step for the East, and bankruptcy for the West, some strange logic makes the East demands more important.

 

[cactusboy53]

So.....even though America West holdings acquired US Air using financing from various sources, and you choose this time to believe something that Mr. Parker stated in a crew news.....that is your foundation for failing to accept your part in a final & binding seniority arbitration (no to mention suing 24 members on RICO charges twice, firing up the "address-gate" folly, and spending $10 million + in litigation).....right?

Just checking.