AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

No I never had a job at America West and am retired now anyway! Just trying to understand how with liquidation as the next step for the East, and bankruptcy for the West, some strange logic makes the East demands more important.

There is no way, had they started piecing this off that there would have not been buyers for large sections of the airline. CLT, and PHL especially. PHL was already being defended by Arlen Specter and he would have forced the jobs lost onto the acquiring carrier in Pa at least. It might not have been pretty, but those jobs would not just go away. Had SWA gotten a large chunk, the recovery would be good. The Int'l section would have jobs go with it also, as with the shuttle. Maybe this would have been a much better deal than slow death by Team Tempe and being forced to be an AWA pilot.
Cactusboy, Judge Silver, painfully, will explain it all shortly. :blush: :blush: :blush:

 

[end_of_alpa]

So.....even though America West holdings acquired US Air using financing from various sources, and you choose this time to believe something that Mr. Parker stated in a crew news.....that is your foundation for failing to accept your part in a final & binding seniority arbitration (no to mention suing 24 members on RICO charges twice, firing up the "address-gate" folly, and spending $10 million + in litigation).....right?

Just checking.

US Airways company webcast for Pilots dated 7/20/06:

Parker: If you care what was going to happen to them you should care what was going to happen to US!!

What I do know for certain, because I was running the place, is that we didn’t have enough money to make it through the winter of 2005-2006. WE HAD INSUFFICIENT FUNDS TO MAKE IT THROUGH! We could have possibly raised more funds...and made it through...and I’m not saying we wouldn’t of...

Pilot ?: Even with loads at max capacity we didn’t have cash to go through...

Parker: ABSOLUTELY NOT...NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Pilot ?: I think we had a ticket price problem.

Parker: Absolutely, of course we did.

Pilot ?: We were flying full airplanes, and your telling me we didn’t have enough money?

Parker: So was Delta and Northwest...and they FILED BANKRUPTCY. It ran out of cash and we would have run out of cash. The prices only went up when seats went away, it was a race to see whose seats went away and WE KEPT OURS (SEATS) IN THE AIR BY DOING THE MERGER!! My strong belief and it’s probably not as high as ninety nine percent but in the high eighties is that we’d be in bankruptcy now. We wouldn’t have liquidated, we’d be in bankruptcy and we’d be going through cutting a bunch of airplanes and all this stuff that Northwest and Delta are doing and we’d be talking about concessions, not staying where we are because...I can tell you right now that I’d be telling you “look guys, everyone else has gotten their labor costs down to ours, we have or I’ve always told you we have a revenue DISADVANTAGE because of where we fly, Phoenix and Las Vegas, we can’t have costs the same, we’ve got to go even lower than where they are, and that’s the conversation we’d be having right now. So that’s where we were headed, I think, all this #### doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t cause what has happened is that none of that stuff happened. What happened is A BUNCH OF PEOPLE PUT IN MONEY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED PUTTING THESE TWO COMPANIES TOGETHER WOULD WORK AND THAT WAS A MERGER, IT WASN’T AN ACQUISITION, WE DIDN’T HAVE ANY MONEY TO GO BUY US AIRWAYS.

A billion dollars in new investment, it was 867 million came in, new investment, thinking that would work and we made it work. We made it work. We got to realize where we are instead of who, what was going to happen to whom, particularly when none of us know for certain.

The bigger piece of this is, I’ve talked to some guys, I’ve talked to thousands of US Airways pilots and not one of them has said we didn’t need this. I’ve got a ton of them coming up and saying thank you very much and not one of them coming up to me and saying hey, we didn’t need this. Now they’re looking forward and saying we are where we are and how are we going to integrate it.

The second question is the insult of telling you your going to the US Airways contract. We are now in negotiations for a combined contract.... moving to the east contracts, that’s a legal argument that we feel very strongly about, it’s the way that the contracts are structured, if we’ve chosen not to negotiate and for some reason we had to go litigate, our position would be the America West contract didn’t have strong “successor-ship language” in it, the US Airways contract did... if there’s a merger, our contract (the US Airways pilot contract) prevails...it wasn’t strong in the America West contract, it’s pretty strong in the US Airways contract. Our legal position is if we have to consolidate them, then the US Airways contract prevails...Management has said, consistently, to every labor group, we went and did this...THE REASON THE 867 MILLION DOLLARS came in is that there were contracts on both sides that were essentially the same... essentially the same as each other and essentially where now other airlines are going. That is “market rate” what it takes to attract and retain the best people in the business. So that is what we think we have. As we put them together, managements objective to put them together is to not have the costs go up...not have the costs go down, but not have them go up. Not get ourselves uncompetitive with everybody else who’s now getting to our level, just keep them where they are when we put them together.... I shouldn’t dance around this, if you move the America West people to the US Airways contracts, the America West people would end up...that would be a reduction in pay in total. Were trying to work together to somehow not have the costs now go up...it’s a challenge.”


MERGER VS. ACQUISITION


Pilot: Were the paperwork filed with the IRS...during the last quarter of 2005, did that state that America West was the acquiring carrier of US Air?

Parker: The SEC I think but, nonetheless for ACCOUNTING PURPOSES America West is the acquiring entity.... accounting, when you go combine companies, accounting rules are mainly for these little companies that go and acquire bigger companies, what the accountants make sure happens...they don’t want to make some company look like they had enormous growth, they have these rules where here’s how we decide who acquires whom for accounting purposes, it doesn’t have anything to do with the legal structure. But you gotta pick one. They don’t allow you to or very seldom allow you to what accountants call “pooling” which is add up the two results. Were not going to let you add them up because you don’t know what would of happened if you add them together, you gotta pick one or the other for the history of the accounting. So, they go and look at a number of tests. The tests include who’s the CEO of the company, America West wins that one, who has the most board seats, America West wins that one, and, ummm, something else. Of those tests, America West prevailed. So, yeah, for ACCOUNTING purposes, we are (America West) is the acquiring entity.

Pilot: So, then, it would have been legal for you to refer to this as an acquisition by America West of US Airways, but you chose to call it a merger.

Parker: For ACCOUNTING purposes we do call it an acquisition...

Pilot: And my statement is, that, when you ask a question, what does it matter if it was a merger or not, I think going back to the flight attendant issue earlier, the reason why the flight attendants are getting date of hire is because that’s AFA’s merger policy, its not their acquisition policy. And I think that statements by the company as far as, like this is a merger, this is not an acquisition, has a huge impact on some of these workgroups and how they end up and you know, with the seniority there going to end up with, and also with how our group is going to negotiate with their group as far as following the ALPA merger policy, as opposed to an acquisition.... so I think that is one thing that you said where managements doing everything that we can do but I don’t know if that’s necessarily true because you didn’t have to call this a merger, I mean, was there some legal reason why you had to call it a merger?

Parker: Legally, it is a merger...

Pilot: Legally, it’s an acquisition too.

Parker: Legally, it’s an acquisition by US Airways, the legal structure that we kept in place is US Airways Group remained as an entity and America West is a subsidiary of US Airways Group. So from a purely legal structure, the real deal is, we can’t lie about this, IT WAS A MERGER. What happened is we had two companies neither of which could acquire the other one, some people put in a BUNCH of new money to put them together, and merge them, yeah I’m still CEO, yeah we had more board members, yes because we had a solvent company, we got more of the value of the merger than US Airways creditors did, because we had shareholders that had a share in it too, and we got a higher percentage (of the shares) but when it was all done, the new money CONTROLLED the entity. They had many more shares than America West shareholders did, and many more than US Airways creditors did. I might have these numbers a little off but to my recollection it was like 10 percent went to US Airways creditors, almost thirty percent to America West shareholders and all the rest was in new money do, it’s a merger, it’s just what it is, I can’t go around lying about it, it’s what it was.



FICTION VS. FACT ANALYSIS

• FICTION: This was an acquisition by America West Airlines.

FACT: This was a LEGAL ACQUISITION by US Airways, Group and I quote:

“ On September 27, 2005, US Airways Group, Inc. (US Airways Group) consummated the transactions contemplated by its plan of reorganization, including the merger transaction with America West Holdings Corporation (America West Holdings). As a result of the merger, America West Holdings became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group. As described in greater detail in Notes 1 and 2, while the merger was structured such that US Airways Group was the legal acquirer, the merger has been accounted for as a reverse acquisition such that America West Holdings has been treated as the accounting acquirer. Financial information for periods prior to the merger include the accounts and activities of America West Holdings. America West Holdings is the holding company that owns all of the stock of America West Airlines, Inc. (AWA). This combined Form 10-Q is filed by both US Airways Group and AWA and includes the financial statements of each company in Item 1A and Item 1B, respectively.”
Form 10-Q Quarterly Report, September 30, 2005.



“The accompanying unaudited condensed consolidated financial statements include the accounts of America West Airlines, Inc. (AWA), a wholly owned subsidiary of America West Holdings Corporation (America West Holdings). On September 27, 2005, America West Holdings merged with Barbell Acquisition Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group, Inc. (US Airways Group), and as a result itself became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group.” Form 10-Q Quarterly Report, September 30, 2005.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015305002835/p7141401e10vq.htm

Short answer: I KNOW PARKER IS RIGHT! WE KNOW YOU'RE NOT. CONFIRMED!

 

[traderjake]

PHL was already being defended by Arlen Specter and he would have forced the jobs lost onto the acquiring carrier in Pa at least.

You truly are delusional.

 

[luvthe9]

[font=Times New Roman']US Airways company webcast for Pilots dated 7/20/06:[/font]

Parker: If you care what was going to happen to them you should care what was going to happen to US!!

What I do know for certain, because I was running the place, is that we didn’t have enough money to make it through the winter of 2005-2006. WE HAD INSUFFICIENT FUNDS TO MAKE IT THROUGH! We could have possibly raised more funds...and made it through...and I’m not saying we wouldn’t of...

Pilot ?: Even with loads at max capacity we didn’t have cash to go through...

Parker: ABSOLUTELY NOT...NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Pilot ?: I think we had a ticket price problem.

Parker: Absolutely, of course we did.

Pilot ?: We were flying full airplanes, and your telling me we didn’t have enough money?

Parker: So was Delta and Northwest...and they FILED BANKRUPTCY. It ran out of cash and we would have run out of cash. The prices only went up when seats went away, it was a race to see whose seats went away and WE KEPT OURS (SEATS) IN THE AIR BY DOING THE MERGER!! My strong belief and it’s probably not as high as ninety nine percent but in the high eighties is that we’d be in bankruptcy now. We wouldn’t have liquidated, we’d be in bankruptcy and we’d be going through cutting a bunch of airplanes and all this stuff that Northwest and Delta are doing and we’d be talking about concessions, not staying where we are because...I can tell you right now that I’d be telling you “look guys, everyone else has gotten their labor costs down to ours, we have or I’ve always told you we have a revenue DISADVANTAGE because of where we fly, Phoenix and Las Vegas, we can’t have costs the same, we’ve got to go even lower than where they are, and that’s the conversation we’d be having right now. So that’s where we were headed, I think, all this #### doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t cause what has happened is that none of that stuff happened. What happened is A BUNCH OF PEOPLE PUT IN MONEY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED PUTTING THESE TWO COMPANIES TOGETHER WOULD WORK AND THAT WAS A MERGER, IT WASN’T AN ACQUISITION, WE DIDN’T HAVE ANY MONEY TO GO BUY US AIRWAYS.

A billion dollars in new investment, it was 867 million came in, new investment, thinking that would work and we made it work. We made it work. We got to realize where we are instead of who, what was going to happen to whom, particularly when none of us know for certain.

The bigger piece of this is, I’ve talked to some guys, I’ve talked to thousands of US Airways pilots and not one of them has said we didn’t need this. I’ve got a ton of them coming up and saying thank you very much and not one of them coming up to me and saying hey, we didn’t need this. Now they’re looking forward and saying we are where we are and how are we going to integrate it.

The second question is the insult of telling you your going to the US Airways contract. We are now in negotiations for a combined contract.... moving to the east contracts, that’s a legal argument that we feel very strongly about, it’s the way that the contracts are structured, if we’ve chosen not to negotiate and for some reason we had to go litigate, our position would be the America West contract didn’t have strong “successor-ship language” in it, the US Airways contract did... if there’s a merger, our contract (the US Airways pilot contract) prevails...it wasn’t strong in the America West contract, it’s pretty strong in the US Airways contract. Our legal position is if we have to consolidate them, then the US Airways contract prevails...Management has said, consistently, to every labor group, we went and did this...THE REASON THE 867 MILLION DOLLARS came in is that there were contracts on both sides that were essentially the same... essentially the same as each other and essentially where now other airlines are going. That is “market rate” what it takes to attract and retain the best people in the business. So that is what we think we have. As we put them together, managements objective to put them together is to not have the costs go up...not have the costs go down, but not have them go up. Not get ourselves uncompetitive with everybody else who’s now getting to our level, just keep them where they are when we put them together.... I shouldn’t dance around this, if you move the America West people to the US Airways contracts, the America West people would end up...that would be a reduction in pay in total. Were trying to work together to somehow not have the costs now go up...it’s a challenge.”


MERGER VS. ACQUISITION


Pilot: Were the paperwork filed with the IRS...during the last quarter of 2005, did that state that America West was the acquiring carrier of US Air?

Parker: The SEC I think but, nonetheless for ACCOUNTING PURPOSES America West is the acquiring entity.... accounting, when you go combine companies, accounting rules are mainly for these little companies that go and acquire bigger companies, what the accountants make sure happens...they don’t want to make some company look like they had enormous growth, they have these rules where here’s how we decide who acquires whom for accounting purposes, it doesn’t have anything to do with the legal structure. But you gotta pick one. They don’t allow you to or very seldom allow you to what accountants call “pooling” which is add up the two results. Were not going to let you add them up because you don’t know what would of happened if you add them together, you gotta pick one or the other for the history of the accounting. So, they go and look at a number of tests. The tests include who’s the CEO of the company, America West wins that one, who has the most board seats, America West wins that one, and, ummm, something else. Of those tests, America West prevailed. So, yeah, for ACCOUNTING purposes, we are (America West) is the acquiring entity.

Pilot: So, then, it would have been legal for you to refer to this as an acquisition by America West of US Airways, but you chose to call it a merger.

Parker: For ACCOUNTING purposes we do call it an acquisition...

Pilot: And my statement is, that, when you ask a question, what does it matter if it was a merger or not, I think going back to the flight attendant issue earlier, the reason why the flight attendants are getting date of hire is because that’s AFA’s merger policy, its not their acquisition policy. And I think that statements by the company as far as, like this is a merger, this is not an acquisition, has a huge impact on some of these workgroups and how they end up and you know, with the seniority there going to end up with, and also with how our group is going to negotiate with their group as far as following the ALPA merger policy, as opposed to an acquisition.... so I think that is one thing that you said where managements doing everything that we can do but I don’t know if that’s necessarily true because you didn’t have to call this a merger, I mean, was there some legal reason why you had to call it a merger?

Parker: Legally, it is a merger...

Pilot: Legally, it’s an acquisition too.

Parker: Legally, it’s an acquisition by US Airways, the legal structure that we kept in place is US Airways Group remained as an entity and America West is a subsidiary of US Airways Group. So from a purely legal structure, the real deal is, we can’t lie about this, IT WAS A MERGER. What happened is we had two companies neither of which could acquire the other one, some people put in a BUNCH of new money to put them together, and merge them, yeah I’m still CEO, yeah we had more board members, yes because we had a solvent company, we got more of the value of the merger than US Airways creditors did, because we had shareholders that had a share in it too, and we got a higher percentage (of the shares) but when it was all done, the new money CONTROLLED the entity. They had many more shares than America West shareholders did, and many more than US Airways creditors did. I might have these numbers a little off but to my recollection it was like 10 percent went to US Airways creditors, almost thirty percent to America West shareholders and all the rest was in new money do, it’s a merger, it’s just what it is, I can’t go around lying about it, it’s what it was.



FICTION VS. FACT ANALYSIS

• FICTION: This was an acquisition by America West Airlines.

FACT: This was a LEGAL ACQUISITION by US Airways, Group and I quote:

“ On September 27, 2005, US Airways Group, Inc. (US Airways Group) consummated the transactions contemplated by its plan of reorganization, including the merger transaction with America West Holdings Corporation (America West Holdings). As a result of the merger, America West Holdings became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group. As described in greater detail in Notes 1 and 2, while the merger was structured such that US Airways Group was the legal acquirer, the merger has been accounted for as a reverse acquisition such that America West Holdings has been treated as the accounting acquirer. Financial information for periods prior to the merger include the accounts and activities of America West Holdings. America West Holdings is the holding company that owns all of the stock of America West Airlines, Inc. (AWA). This combined Form 10-Q is filed by both US Airways Group and AWA and includes the financial statements of each company in Item 1A and Item 1B, respectively.”
Form 10-Q Quarterly Report, September 30, 2005.



“The accompanying unaudited condensed consolidated financial statements include the accounts of America West Airlines, Inc. (AWA), a wholly owned subsidiary of America West Holdings Corporation (America West Holdings). On September 27, 2005, America West Holdings merged with Barbell Acquisition Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group, Inc. (US Airways Group), and as a result itself became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group.” Form 10-Q Quarterly Report, September 30, 2005.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015305002835/p7141401e10vq.htm

Short answer: I KNOW PARKER IS RIGHT! WE KNOW YOU'RE NOT. CONFIRMED!

Unbelievable posts! This absolutely destroys the entire West line of BS they have been laying, and backed by Traitor. Project Zanzibar!

 

[Black Swan]

Is Judge Silver hearing the clarification tomorrow? How many are going?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is Judge Silver hearing the clarification tomorrow? How many are going?

Is Judge Silver hearing the clarification tomorrow? How many are going?

I am sure the ARMYOFLEADUSUNHREABLES will be there! MM

 

[Black Swan]

I am sure the ARMYOFLEADUSUNHREABLES will be there! MM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZeDpXfJnVA

1+22 certainly hits home for all of us........

 

[Black Swan]

or is it.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCR85u9QngQ

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.vinylrecords.ch/A/AL/Alan_Parsons_Project/IRobot-IT/alan-parsons-irobot-11.jpg

 

[cactusboy53]

Blah, blah, blah. Always an excuse for cheating & not keeping your word. See you boys in court. USAPA ..... The gift that just keeps taking.

 

[Claxon]

Blah, blah, blah. Always an excuse for cheating & not keeping your word. See you boys in court. USAPA ..... The gift that just keeps taking.

The bottom line is your western group and legal never had a grip on any of this. Ever. It has been all empty posturing. Started with McIlvenna and him being totally clueless. Warned time and again what would come to pass. Warned the easterners would vote the entire airline out of ALPA. It happened. Then it went to the Wake court. Warned again it would go to appeal. It did and you ignore the true warning the 9th gave. Over and over. The Nic is just a proposal. Nothing more.
Tomorrow will be an affirmation of the 9th. If Silver pulls a Wake, it goes right to the 9th. This time if it does there will be no question and the stupid re hash of Nic 4 and the ridiculous HP. Both are in over their heads.
Cactusboy53 being a PHX rep is totally over his head in this. This is why your group and Leonidas will really be proven to be totally off.What do the AWA pilots do when their reps are proven wrong, again?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Blah, blah, blah. Always an excuse for cheating & not keeping your word. See you boys in court. USAPA ..... The gift that just keeps taking.

[font=NewBaskerville-Roman']The analysis addresses whether, under [font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune[/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']: (1) the Federal Circuit and district courts have begun to grant declaratory relief in cases stretching the controversy requirement to include far-fetched circumstances; and (2) whether there has been a rapid increase in declaratory relief actions.[/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']16[/font][/font]

[font=NewBaskerville-Roman']This analysis concludes that Justice Thomas’s critique was accurate in part. The Court’s loosening (or, as he contends, its lack) of limiting principles[font=NewBaskerville-Roman']17 [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']certainly lowers the burden placed upon the party seeking declaratory relief—and consequently increases the burden on the declaratory relief defendant to demonstrate there is no actual controversy. Before [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune[/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman'], a declaratory relief plaintiff was required to demonstrate the [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']probability [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']of suit, which was a fairly high hurdle to overcome. But [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']lowered the hurdle, such that the declaratory relief plaintiff need only demonstrate the [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']potential [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']for suit. As a result, there is an increased chance that a court may render an opinion which proves to be hypothetical. This critique aside, the courts applying [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']so far appear to have managed to adhere to the separation they must keep between real and hypothetical controversies. Furthermore, while [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']has spread to areas of law outside of patent litigation, this outgrowth has been limited. Thus, Justice Thomas’s broader critique, that [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Italic']MedImmune [/font][font=NewBaskerville-Roman']would unleash a torrent of hypothetical actions, does not seem to be coming to fruition.[/font][/font]

 

[Claxon]

Blah, blah, blah. Always an excuse for cheating & not keeping your word. See you boys in court. USAPA ..... The gift that just keeps taking.

Blah, blah, blah. Always an excuse for cheating & not keeping your word. See you boys in court. USAPA ..... The gift that just keeps taking.

Absolutely USAPA is the gift that keeps taking. It will take the Nic and destroy it. You can bank that.

 

[cactusboy53]

Absolutely USAPA is the gift that keeps taking. It will take the Nic and destroy it. You can bank that.

What ever you say Skipper. You're the seer of seers, the prognosticator of prognosticators.

How could we so foolish to think we ever had a chance with the mighty Clearian machine? All those legal wins that you have racked up? What were we thinking when we expected integrity and only got anger? Oh the humanity!.......

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

What ever you say Skipper. You're the seer of seers, the prognosticator of prognosticators.

How could we so foolish to think we ever had a chance with the mighty Clearian machine? All those legal wins that you have racked up? What were we thinking when we expected integrity and only got anger? Oh the humanity!.......

What ever you say Skipper. You're the seer of seers, the prognosticator of prognosticators.

How could we so foolish to think we ever had a chance with the mighty Clearian machine? All those legal wins that you have racked up? What were we thinking when we expected integrity and only got anger? Oh the humanity!.......

http://compasscorrectioncoalition.com/